The Cellar » Trump isn't all bad.

glatt · 10/24/2020 11:14 am

This is where I try to find good things to say about the man. In the interest of fairness.

I understand his administration had something to do with brokering peace accords between Israel and the Untied Arab Emirates, Bahrain, and Sudan. I'm not sure how much credit he deserves and if those countries would have found peace regardless of his involvement, but even the Washington Post is giving him credit, so I think he deserves some.

If you can think of something he has done that is objectively good, please post it here.

xoxoxoBruce · 10/24/2020 12:05 pm

Simple, because of Trump the whole world is aware the US is not to be trusted and they better get their shit together on their own. Without being able to depend on the US backing or tempering Israel it's a good idea to settle things down. Long after trump is gone the fear another wacko could be elected in four years has shaken the diplomatic circle.

Flint · 10/24/2020 2:06 pm

He said the quiet parts out loud, AND compelled his colleagues to publicly endorse what had been laid bare. Whether you agree with him or not, I propose that this is what we actually want ALL politicians to do. We hardly ever see a politician just SAY what they mean. Bernie comes to mind, I mean if you don't know what he stands for, you've never heard him speak. These two were the book-ends of our political spectrum, it's a shame we never got to see the epic battle of our lifetimes.

Diaphone Jim · 10/25/2020 11:38 am

"If you can think of something he has done that is objectively good, please post it here."
OK:

griff · 10/25/2020 12:01 pm

Essentially what UT said but his poor grasp of diplomacy may have consequences that lead to... war.

gtown · 10/26/2020 12:32 am

This thread reminds me of the joke: “Other than that, Mrs. Kennedy, how did you enjoy Dallas?”

tw · 10/26/2020 12:11 pm

Undertoad wrote:
First POTUS in a long while who hasn't started any wars

Neville Chamberlain also did not start any wars. As a result, his approval rating (due to pacifism) remained at an extraordinary 68%. UT's reasoning also proves Chamberlain was a great leader. When Germany attacked the low countries, Chamberlain resigned. He also never started a war. He made Britain great again.

Since Churchill started Britain's WWII against Germany, Italy, and Japan, then Churchill was an inferior leader. History that demonstrates why Trump made America great.

Last edited by tw (10/26/2020 12:11 pm)

Flint · 10/26/2020 12:30 pm

yEAh! suck on THAT you CHamberlain-loving nincompoop !1

tw · 10/26/2020 12:45 pm

Big Sarge wrote:
I like how unemployment and poverty dropped under President Trump before COVID..

Since jobs created today are due to events from four and ten years ago, that proves Trump's companies, that were creating so many jobs back then, have been realized today.

Last edited by tw (10/26/2020 12:46 pm)

glatt · 10/26/2020 3:15 pm

Big Sarge wrote:
Kudos also for his changes to the VA and his criminal justice reforms.

I'd love to hear more about both of those things. I remember hearing he was making changes in the VA, but not the details and whether it was an improvement or not.

I no nothing about criminal justice reforms he has done. Can you elaborate?

Diaphone Jim · 10/27/2020 11:53 am

Sarge: Have you ever watched a speech by Secretary of Veterans Affairs Robert Wilkie?
He is not a friend of veterans and is a perfect example of Trump's entire by-and-for rich men's cabinet.

tw · 10/27/2020 2:14 pm

Anybody who is able to stay in government must think like Trump. Apparently that is a good thing.

VCP was promoted originally by Obama in 2014. But (another good thing) Trump finally got Republicans (who work mostly for the rich) to fund it. But it was a Sunset law. I think funding expired at the end of 2019. Just long enough for Trump (another good thing) to look good to his people.

tw · 10/27/2020 3:20 pm

Big Sarge wrote:
My health care has improved dramatically during President Trump's administration.

Which makes sense due to changes at the highest levels in 2007 through 2017. Never forget how the VA treated Iraq war victims. Even Rumsfeld's wife discovered soldiers all but abandoned in other buildings in Walter Reed - literally lying on mattresses soaked in their own urine. That was required before solutions could start. Problems so massive as to require years to fix address most of them.

Vets would go to another VA hospital. Their records could not be obtained by that second hospital. It was a disaster that continued until the Mission Accomplished war demonstrated how large and routine these problems were. Only then did Congress decide to address funding.

tw · 10/28/2020 5:38 pm

Trump encouragement has again inspired his disciples. So they are now threatening the life of Leslie Stahl - after her 60 minute interview. Another good thing. He is getting rid of those uppity women.

Luce · 10/30/2020 9:25 am

He hasn't started any wars. I will give him that much.

tw · 10/30/2020 11:09 am

Luce wrote:
He hasn't started any wars. I will give him that much.

America was only ten minutes away from launching attacks on Iran.

We know from Mueller's Investigation that so many subordinates did not do or obstructed many Trump orders. Number of crimes that justified impeachment were something like ten or twenty. In every case, a crime was not committed because so many subordinates ignored or did not implement his orders.

Apparently same happened only ten minutes before Trump attacked Iran. Details have not been forthcoming. That would have been during Mathias period.

That would have been a first time in history (as best I can tell) that a democracy attacked another democracy.

He did not start a war - why? Same reason why so many impeachable crimes were ordered but not implemented. Later, on 21 Jun 2019, Trump took credit for halting a "Pearl Harbor" style attack on Iran. Apparently Leslie Graham and others had to talk Trump down. An attack that only he could and did order. Six months later, he murdered Soleimani. An attack that was expected to not result in overt war.

According to so many sources including The Atlantic, "Mattis and Tillerson had together smothered some of Trump's more extreme and imprudent ideas." Others then had to smother Trump's quick trigger. Without them, well, we were also considering a "Pearl Harbor" style attack on North Korea.

So many people then driven from office because they would not do the wars and other dangerous ideals that Trump constantly advocated.

Trump is not the reason for so many wars. His subordinates constantly obstructed his despot inspired ideas.

tw · 10/31/2020 9:44 am

Trump is presidential material because he has machismo. Just like Idi Amin, Hugo Chevez, Slobodan Milosevic, Manuel Noriega, Fidel Castro, Pol Pot, Benito Mussolini, and Link Hogthrob. All achieved their purpose in life. All are famous because of their machismo.

Last edited by tw (10/31/2020 9:44 am)

xoxoxoBruce · 11/01/2020 8:22 am

Isn't that like Blaming Sam Colt, or Browning for everyone shot?

tw · 11/01/2020 12:22 pm

Big Sarge wrote:
t His Quds Force introduced EFPs (explosively formed penetrator) to Iraq.

Which was long after he tried to become and was an America ally even in Afghanistan. Had the America administration made decisions from facts rather than from their emotions, well, Soleimani was a largest source of intelligence and planning on how to take out the Taliban. An example little know by those educated by extremist rhetoric (ie Fox News, Rush Limbaugh).

He was an American ally in 2001 - fighting with American forces. And then wacko extremists for George Jr declared him a terrorist in 2005 - only because he was Iranian. That was the extent of their knowledge. (Which is also typical of one with a 30 second attention span.) Which is typical of people who are not moderates.

Uneducated Americans actually believed that George Jr lie in a famous "Axis of Evil" speech. Then Soleimani bluntly told his American friends and allies that the administration (who would later massacre 5000 American soldiers for no purpose) made it impossible to still work with Americans. I believe his exact quote was "You blew it."

After Paul Bremer did so much harm to everyone in Iraq, then Soleimani was sought out by many Iraqi patriots that, we now know, were fighting for Iraq due to so much destruction created by dumb Americans. Benchmarks for that stupidity was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coalition_Provisional_Authority_Order_1 and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coalition_Provisional_Authority_Order_2 . Any educated American solider knows his friends were murdered by that stupidity - that even violated military concepts well defined 2,500 years ago.

Quds forces from Iran were American allies, fighting alongside Americans, until a leader, whose knowledge is only based in extremist rhetoric, turned American allies into enemies. Any solider, who is officer material, knows this.

How curious. Ho Chi Minh repeatedly wrote the US president requesting that Vietnam be made a protectorate of the United Stated (like Philippines). Wacko extremist used extremist political rhetoric to spin "he is a socialist so he is an enemy. (Same demented lies are also used by Trump supporters to support that liar.) So we turned another American ally into an enemy doing the exact same illiteracy.

How long ago did we know about Soleimani? Back when lies for Mission Accomplished were being exposed in the old Cellar. Soleimani's actions as an American ally were even discussed then. But the post was more than a few paragraphs. So only 'officer material' learned it. Also noted were the five heads (without bodies) of Iranians diplomats returned to Iran by the Taliban.

Massacre of 5000 American soldiers means Big-Sarge should have been calling for drone strikes on Rumsfeld and Bremer - his enemies. But that means unlearning so many lies. And becoming what defines a patriotic American - be educated. Instead we attacked someone who repeatedly tried to cooperate with and become an American ally.

Soleimani was legendary for being one of the most competent military commanders in the entire Middle East. He truly grasped of the region. He then showed Asad how to finally stop losing to ISIS. That is when the Russians y realized what an asset Soleimani was (and how stupid some Americans were).

Soleimani was sometimes critical of his own right wing extremist leadership when it clearly was a threat to his people - Iran. All too complicated for some who are ordered what to believe soundbites. Who do not first learn facts. Who automatically recited what wackos told them to believe - because they are emotional - not logical.

Learn who is responsible for the death of so many friends. As was clearly demonstrated also in Vietnam. And only understood by those who learn from history. "We have met the enemy and he is us." Dejavue Nam. The examples are numerous and massive. And can never be learned from soundbytes, wild speculation, and Fox News.

Last edited by tw (11/01/2020 12:28 pm)

tw · 11/01/2020 8:34 pm

Undertoad wrote:
How did Obama treat him?

How did Obama treat Soleimani? Obama tried to undo (all over the world) political and international relationship damage done by Cheney et al. Rumors persisted of clandestine meetings between Soleimani and American officials. In attempt to bring Soleimani back into a team to fix the Middle East. By this point, Soleimani was a most powerful and influential operatives. His Quds forces had respect similar to American special forces. He less needed an ally that could not be trusted. Who even lied while performing torture all over the world.

When people like George Jr and Trump so sour relations with everyone, then everyone remains skeptical. Why deal with a good administration when wacko extremists in American then replace it with an evil one - that even claims torture is good. Just like any good Gestapo agent.

Soleimani was probably skeptical. He got burned once by the mental midget's "Axis of Evil" speech. It would have taken a lot - maybe too much - to bring him back into the fold.

However once Asad all but gave him power to conduct Syria's war against ISIS, then Russia also learned how powerful, effective, and valuable this ally was. Soleimani was never burned by the Russians.

As you recall back in the early 2000, I was not only defining the lie that would be called Mission Accomplished. I was also defining massive international relation bombs lauched by the US - because Americans elected a mental midget who did what a despot style VP ordered him to do.

For example, before George Jr, American approval ratings in Turkey exceeded 90%. Then Cheney et al began torturing people all over the world - like any good Nazi. Torture of Turkish special forces and the resulting death it lieutenant - in American hands - turned American popularity rating to 10%. Damage was so massive (because so many voted for wacko extremists - not moderates) that Obama was never able to restore American popularity. Why should they cooperate? The Turks got it right. America again elected a wacko extremist president who was even dumber. With a 30 second attention span. Best not to deal with good Americans because of brainwashed American voters.

How can anyone trust America when so many voters are now so brainwashed as to deny Covid facemasks work, praise Nazis in the streets of Charoletteville, White Supremacists, and the KKK, openly praise Kim (thereby protecting his nuclear weapons development), openly discussing abandoning allies such as Korea and Taiwan, now declare marching in the streets with AK-47 is good, tried to sell out the Ukrainians to the Russians, promote racism with Confederate flags and 'Blue lives matter' rhetoric, and now make democracy look inferior to countries run by despots.

Why would Soleimani ever risk being burned again. Look at what we have become. So many American citizens even hate all immigrants and openly advocate (approve of) secret torture chambers throughout the world . Just like Slobodan Milosevic, Pol Pot, and Augusto Pinochet. "We have met the enemy and he is us."

Unfortunately many people do not see this bigger picture. Which also explained why 50,000 American servicemen were killed uselessly in Nam. We are suppose to learn from history. Dejavue Nam - stated back then repeatedly and again today. We didn't. So Mission Accomplished occurred. Why would Soleimani (or other great leaders) trust a country that elects someone as dumb and corrupt as Trump?

Obama tried. But we were not ready nor understood that is necessary to perform an Act of Contrition.

Remember we told Saddam if was OK to attack Kuwait. Because we did not understand that is what we were telling him. Somehow, people educated by tweets and soundbytes forgot that well demonstrated mistake. I believe UT called the man who clearly exposed that mistake the "dumb".anchorman.

Unknown is how much damage was done in and simultaneously during Mission Accomplished. And worse, so many Americans who still remain in denial today.

xoxoxoBruce · 11/02/2020 3:48 am

Undertoad wrote:
no

I disagree, even if he personally invented the EFP that doesn't make him any different than Alfred Nobel, Mikhail Kalashnikov, or Sam Colt.
As far as bringing EFPs to the war we started, that's what any commander worth his salt would do for his troops, give them the best tools he can.

Luce · 11/02/2020 10:16 am

tw wrote:
Luce wrote:
He hasn't started any wars. I will give him that much.
America was only ten minutes away from launching attacks on Iran.

But it didn't happen.

tw · 11/02/2020 11:38 am

Luce wrote:
But it didn't happen.

No thanks to Trump. He (unlike honest men) would start a nuclear war on an excuse. That is probably a lie. He even unilaterally canceled the intermediate nuclear missile treaty - since he has so much concept for our allies. Let them be more likely to be destroyed by a war.

Meanwhile we almost went to war with North Korea. Quoted elsewhere in the Cellar, Bob Woodward found numerous military sources that confirmed that confrontation between July and September. Apparently people who confirmed it all refused to provide any details. Facts about it are that secret. Apparently that is two major wars that Trump tried to start.

What other American president creates a war? Only Johnson/Nixon. And George Jr. In both cases, war was created because WE were wrong.

War did not happen ONLY because patriotic Americans averted another Trump created disaster.

Well, I ran 99 stop signs. Did not kill anyone. So I can run more. Using that reasoning, the it is safe to let Trump keep trying to kill thousands of Americans in a war for no purpose.

tw · 11/02/2020 6:39 pm

Insiders say Trump has already prepared an executive order to fix the civil service. Currently people in positions (such as Dr Fauci) are not political appointees. So much of the Federal government is dominated by apolitical civil servants. Reports say he will fix the government by converting those government posts in political appointments. So that he can fire large numbers of "laggard" and replace them with productive Trump supporters.

Apparent another good thing that he will do.

xoxoxoBruce · 11/02/2020 6:54 pm

949 reasons Trump is a dick.
https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/949-topics-to-discuss-with-undecided-voters