The Cellar » Kamala Harris and Sexism here

Flint · 11/24/2020 5:14 pm

I still don't know who is posting with the burner account

this is stupid

Limey · 11/24/2020 5:21 pm

Undertoad wrote:
In other words, it's not language policing, it's thought policing

I don't follow you, please explain.
I am objecting to the use of sexist insults against a woman in the public eye. Of course I cannot police people's thoughts, but what I do want to do is make it plain that there are other language choices that could be made, and that there are consequences to the language choices all people make.

Grandƒather · 11/24/2020 5:26 pm

I think he's doing it on purpose, don't you agree, Grandfather?

Flint · 11/24/2020 5:29 pm

Good lord this isn't confusing at all.. NOT

psyche, today is opposite day

Flint · 11/24/2020 5:36 pm

more like Grandfuhrer

amirite

Flint · 11/24/2020 5:53 pm

oh for christ sake

Limey · 11/24/2020 5:59 pm

Undertoad wrote:
I don't follow you, please explain.

Do you feel someone should be permitted on this forum if they are sexist?

Eh? Where have I said that they should not? Yes, of course, just as I am "permitted" to object. What is wrong with a discussion, the expression of opposing viewpoints?

Flint · 11/24/2020 6:43 pm

From what I understand, should someone be allowed on the forum if they're sexist?
If YES, they express their thoughts with language. <-- [current state]
If NO, then no language is allowed, but the thoughts still exist. <-- Language Policing

'Thought Policing' would allow free expression of language (they ARE allowed on the forum) but only within a prescribed range of opinions? Only those with the "allowed" thoughts can express their thoughts with language?
e.g. "you can say whatever you want as long as you agree with me"

I don't fully understand what a functional mechanism of "policing" would be, but I suspect it's some form of societal pressure to conform?

Last edited by Flint (11/24/2020 6:46 pm)

Flint · 11/24/2020 7:51 pm

I've learned a lot about what the world is like for people that are not me. This is via listening to them and believing what they say. The world is different for me than it is for other people, that's just the way it is. I am fully committed to the idea of listening, learning, and if my conscience guides me in the direction of making some kind of change in my speech or behavior, the desire to do the right thing kicks in and I try my best to be better and more mindful of others.

I believe this is a fundamental principle. I believe that you can't go wrong if you're trying to improve yourself and make the world a better place. You might make some rhetorical missteps and go through possibly embarrassing phases, but basically if your heart is in the right place, you can be assured that wanting to be empathetic of others, and wanting to do your best to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you", you are moving in the right direction.

At the personal level, if you find out that you've accidentally been stomping on your neighbor's foot, and they say, "ow, that hurts" --what is your response? Tell them to "be strong"? I don't understand that. How do you make that right in your head and in your heart?

Flint · 11/24/2020 9:21 pm

I don't understand the scenario. The reason I know that I'm hurting their foot is because they told me, and I believed them. That's the scenario, that's the reality, not some other "but what if"

Also, I can't make them get better shoes, I don't know if they can afford better shoes, and I don't even know that sturdier shoes would even be a workable solution. You know what IS within my knowledge, and my control? Not being a dick. Putting self control where it belongs-- on ME. Like, the ONLY place I can take action. Me, myself, hearing about a problem and deciding to not be a dick about it.

I can't believe we have to argue "don't be a dick"

Flint · 11/24/2020 10:20 pm

Yeah, you got me dead to rights on that one.

We're all a work in progress, but look, I'm saying-- what should our aspirations be?

I'm quoting the frickin BIBLE in my argument. Is nothing sacred? That's how far down the dickhead path society has gone, and even has reasonable, well-meaning people arguing the "pro dickhead" position?

Flint · 11/24/2020 11:20 pm

Am I misunderstanding your position?
If someone is aggrieved, they should toughen up?

Flint · 11/25/2020 12:05 am

The world is not your child for you to teach lessons to.

Nobody asked white men for their "here's what I would do" advice.

Flint · 11/25/2020 2:41 am

I thought you would jump on that one.. but I refrained from writing the response before you actually said the thing. Of course you didn't disappoint me, my good man. Ol' faithful, I dub thee.

There are power imbalances, right? My advice is to myself, to respect what other people's experiences are, especially when they literally say what they are. Take it or leave it, it's what I believe is right. Your advice is to the victim-- you're advising in the wrong direction, boss.

A just society tries to take advice from the bottom up. You don't have to go along with me and want a just society, that's okay. I'm not policing you.

Last edited by Flint (11/25/2020 2:43 am)

Limey · 11/25/2020 5:01 am

Undertoad wrote:
Yeah I mean policing of any form I spose, from simply speaking out in annoyance, to banning words people etc

...
But I'm pretty certain that the answer to this is not to police speech or thought, but for each of us to become strong. ...

At the world level we have the responsibility to do what we can to make it a better place. At the individual level we also have this responsibility to become strong. Both must be met

That's what I think RFN anyway

But not all of us are able to become strong, because societal norms are stacked against us. This is where we have the responsibility to do what we can to make the world a better place. So people who are strong should speak up for those who are oppressed, no?

henry_quirk · 11/25/2020 10:47 am

Hey Limey, track down whoever maliciously edited the signature line in the Grandfather account and ban them by IP address.

yeah, I pointed that out in the meta

and: we all know who it was

Clodfobble · 11/25/2020 11:00 am

Users can turn off all signature displays under My Options --> Viewing Options.

Last edited by Clodfobble (11/25/2020 11:01 am)

henry_quirk · 11/25/2020 11:00 am

it bears repeatin' by way of my own, un-cowwardly, account

bottomline: I'm a free man with my own thinkin' and if I wanna call the mebbe vp a whore: I will...if the powers that be don't like it they can oust me...if members here don't like it they can ignore me

absolutely, not a one of you is invited to root 'round the weedy patch of my head, prunin' shears in hands

if my produce offends: don't eat it

Henry

henry_quirk · 11/25/2020 12:10 pm

I wasn't aware of all the changes to grandpappy (never looked that close)

as I say: we know who done it...let me be non-cowwardly and say it flat-out: flint done it

I expect denials to blossom soon...I also expect not a damn thing will be done about the account shenanigans

The early indicators are that there will be more double standards here than at the old place.

shit, I knew that comin' in

Limey · 11/25/2020 12:14 pm

henry_quirk wrote:
Hey Limey, track down whoever maliciously edited the signature line in the Grandfather account and ban them by IP address.

yeah, I pointed that out in the meta

and: we all know who it was

Why me, particularly? There are two other mods, clod and glatt, too.
You wanted an account set up that everyone could access, and there it was. You seem to have adopted it as your own now, what with changing the password and all.
And yeah, I am very sad that the anonymous account has been abused and probably will be from now on. It was an extremely valuable resource at .org and I mourn its passing.

Happy Monkey · 11/25/2020 12:33 pm

The only account "deemed unacceptable" was when henry demanded that someone be IP banned.

"Please don't be sexist" isn't deeming any account unacceptable.

henry_quirk · 11/25/2020 12:37 pm

Happy Monkey wrote:
The only account "deemed unacceptable" was when henry demanded that someone be IP banned.

"Please don't be sexist" isn't deeming any account unacceptable.

I didn't do that

Flint · 11/25/2020 1:09 pm

I never said A, or C.

Happy Monkey · 11/25/2020 1:35 pm

henry_quirk wrote:
I didn't do that

Apologies. Glad you got your account to avoid that in the future.

Last edited by Happy Monkey (11/25/2020 1:35 pm)

Flint · 11/25/2020 2:09 pm

I'm happy to talk about B, but I'm never going to read the rest of your post after the "you said A, B, and C" part. Because, irrelevant. That's you writing in your diary, ol' buddy, ol' pal of mine.