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12/10/2020 1:37 pm  #26


Re: the kraken?

missouri
alabama
arkansas
florida
indiana
kansas
louisiana
mississippi
montana
nebraska
north dakota
oklahoma
south carolina
south dakota
tennessee
utah
west virginia
arizona

all signed on to the brief that backs the texas suit

 

12/10/2020 1:42 pm  #27


Re: the kraken?

Get the Fuck Over It.

you'll have to post louder...don't think any of the attorneys general heard that

-----

So.. conjecture and hearsay.

insightful analysis...go whisper it in the collective ear of the nine...I know it'll help
 

     Thread Starter
 

12/10/2020 2:09 pm  #28


Re: the kraken?

from The Federalist (take it as you will)

6 things to know about texas's supreme court petition over 2020's messed up election

by Margot Cleveland

On Monday, Texas filed a motion for leave to file a “Bill of Complaint” with the U.S. Supreme Court to challenge the constitutionality of Pennsylvania, Georgia, Michigan, and Wisconsin’s administration of the 2020 presidential election. The combined filings, which also include a request for an expedited review and a preliminary injunction, spanned more than 150 pages. Here’s what you need to know about this latest election case.

1. This Is Not Bush v. Gore
Texas’s lawsuit is a procedural creature differing greatly from the Bush v. Gore case about the 2000 election. Unlike Bush v. Gore, which traveled to the Supreme Court on appeal, Texas’s lawsuit relies on the Supreme Court’s “original jurisdiction,” or power to hear a case initially.

The Constitution establishes several types of cases that fall within the Supreme Court’s original jurisdiction, but other than cases involving disputes between two states, Congress has created “concurrent jurisdiction” with lower federal courts. This means those other types of disputes may be heard by federal district courts.

Not so in the case of a state suing a state. The U.S. Supreme Court has “exclusive jurisdiction” over such cases, meaning that such disputes can only be resolved by the U.S. Supreme Court.

Paradoxically, however, the Supreme Court does not have to hear a dispute between the states. Rather, controlling precedent holds that whether to hear such a dispute is within the Supreme Court’s discretion. That is why Texas filed a “Motion for Leave to File a Bill of Complaint—because it needs the court’s permission to file the complaint.

In its memorandum in support of its motion, Texas argues that the case “presents constitutional questions of immense national consequences,” namely that the 2020 election suffered from serious constitutional irregularities, including violations by the defendant states of the Electors Clause and the Due Process Clause of the Constitution. The brief also argues that a ruling would help “preserve the Constitution and help prevent irregularities in future elections.”

Texas, however, also argues the Supreme Court’s “review is not discretionary.” In other words, Texas is also asking the Supreme Court to overturn its precedent that holds that the high court need not accept a complaint filed by one state against one or more defendant states. Given the time-sensitivity of the election dispute, it is unlikely that the Supreme Court will want to waste precious days revisiting this precedent—something unnecessary if the Supreme Court accepts the Bill of Complaint on a discretionary basis.

2. The Time Is Short—And the Court Has Already Acted
Along with its Motion for Leave to File a Bill of Complaint, Texas also filed a Motion for Expedited Consideration of its motions, including its second motion, a Motion for a Preliminary Injunction, Temporary Restraining Order, or Alternatively a Stay. In this latter motion, Texas asks the court to order Georgia, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania not to take any action to certify presidential electors, participate in the Electoral College, or vote for a presidential candidate until the Supreme Court resolves Texas’s lawsuit.

Noting that federal law establishes Dec. 8 as a safe harbor for certifying presidential electors, that the Electoral College votes on Dec. 14, and the House of Representatives counts votes on Jan. 6, Texas implores the court to expedite the proceeding, as “absent some form of relief, the defendants will appoint electors based on unconstitutional and deeply uncertain election results.”

Yesterday the court, recognizing the urgency of the matter, ordered responses by the defendant states to Texas’s Motion for Leave to File a Bill of Complaints, and Texas’s Motion for a Preliminary Injunction, Temporary Restraining Order, or a Stay, to be filed by Dec. 10, 2020, at 3 p.m.

3. Texas Presents Serious Constitutional Claims
Notwithstanding some branding Texas lawsuit a “Hail Mary” attempt to block the outcome of the 2020 election, the Lone Star State’s complaint presents serious constitutional issues. Those issues, as Texas puts it, far exceed the electoral irregularities of “the hanging-chad saga of the 2000 election.”

In its Bill of Complaint, filed along with its Motion for Leave, Texas presents three constitutional challenges. Count 1 alleges the defendant states violated the Electors Clause of the Constitution.

The Electors Clause of Article II, Section 1, Clause 2 of the U.S. Constitution provides “[e]ach state shall appoint, in such manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a number of electors, equal to the whole number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress.” As Texas notes, this clause “makes clear that only the legislatures of the States are permitted to determine the rules for appointing presidential electors.”

But, as Texas reveals in its detailed summary of the facts, each of the defendant states, through non-legislative actors, nullified legislatively established election laws in violation of the Electors Clause. For example, several large Wisconsin counties used drop boxes in direct violation of the Wisconsin Election Code that provides detailed procedures by which municipalities may designate sites for the acceptance of absentee ballots. Wisconsin election officials also ignored the statutory certification requirements for absentee ballots, counting votes that the state legislature defined as illegal because they did not include a witness signature and address.

Michigan election officials likewise violated the statutory mandates established by the state legislature, with the secretary of state mass mailing absentee ballots in contravention of state law. And in Wayne County, the home of Detroit’s Democratic stronghold, election officials ignored the state’s signature verification requirement. Georgia also violated the legislature’s requirement for signature verifications, according to Texas’s complaint.

The most egregious violations alleged came from Pennsylvania, where election officials ignored the statutory bar on inspecting ballots before election day, then illegally provided voter information to third parties and allowed illegal curing of the ballots. Significantly, in Pennsylvania these illegal practices only occurred in Democratic strongholds, with Republicans following the law.

These and other practices, Texas alleges, establish a clear violation of the Electors Clause, because that clause makes clear that it is the state legislature—and not administrative agencies, election officials, or even courts—charged under our constitutional system with selecting electors. (This argument finds support in the three-justice concurrence authored by then-Chief Justice William Rehnquist in Bush v. Gore.) From there, Texas’s Count 1 argues that “electors appointed to Electoral College in violation of the Electors Clause cannot cast constitutionally valid votes for the office of President.”

In Count 2, Texas relied on the same facts, then asserted an Equal Protection claim, premised on the reasoning of the majority opinion in Bush v. Gore. In Bush v. Gore, the Supreme Court held that the Equal Protection Clause of the Constitution is violated when states apply differing standards for judging the legality of votes cast for president.

“The right to vote is protected in more than the initial allocation of the franchise,” the Supreme Court wrote. “Equal protection applies as well to the manner of its exercise. Having once granted the right to vote on equal terms, the State may not, by later arbitrary and disparate treatment, value one person’s vote over that of another.”

Then, citing its detailed statement of the facts, which highlighted the defendant states’ disparate treatment of voters, Texas argues in Count 2 that “equal protection violations in one State can and do adversely affect and diminish the weight of votes cast in States that lawfully abide by the election structure set forth in the Constitution.”

Finally, in Count 3, Texas asserts a violation of the Due Process Clause of the Constitution. This claim is premised on Texas’s allegation that the election practices of the defendant states in 2020 reached “the point of patent and fundamental unfairness,” thus violating substantive due process.

These three counts, and the detailed facts Texas alleges, make clear that Texas’s beef is not with the states’ election laws, but with the states’ violation of their own election laws, in contravention of the U.S. Constitution.

4. Texas’s Standing to Sue
Merely alleging the defendant states violated the Constitution, however, is not enough. Texas must also establish that it has “standing” to sue, meaning it has been injured in a way entitling it to stand before the court and seek redress. In its Motion for Leave, Texas argues at great length that it has standing, and presents three separate bases for it.

First, Texas claims the right to present the constitutional claims of its citizens, who “have the right to demand that all other States abide by the constitutionally set rules in appointing presidential electors to the electoral college.”

Second, Texas “presses its own form of voting-rights injury as States” premised on the structure of the Constitution. “Whereas the House represents the People proportionally, the Senate represents the States,” Texas notes. Thus, “[w]hile Americans likely care more about who is elected President, the States have a distinct interest in who is elected Vice President and thus who can cast the tiebreaking vote in the Senate,” the Texas brief stresses. “Through that interest,” the brief continues:

States suffer an Article III injury when another State violates federal law to affect the outcome of a presidential election. This injury is particularly acute in 2020, where a Senate majority often will hang on the Vice President’s tie-breaking vote because of the nearly equal—and, depending on the outcome of Georgia run-off elections in January, possibly equal— balance between political parties. Quite simply, it is vitally important to the States who becomes Vice President.
Finally, Texas argues it has standing to sue as a representative of the state’s “electors.” These electors, Texas argues, suffer a “legislative injury whenever allegedly improper actions deny them a working majority.” Since “[t]he electoral college is a zero-sum game,” the unconstitutional appointment of electors in other states injures Texas’s electors, according to the briefing.

5. Texas Is Not Seeking to Overturn the Election—Or Install Trump
These injuries, Texas asserts, demand a remedy. But the remedy sought is not what some may surmise is the goal—a second term for President Trump.

No, what Texas seeks is for the Supreme Court to mandate that the defendant states comply with the Constitution, and that means that electors are selected by the states’ legislatures. Texas makes this point clear, stressing: “Plaintiff State does not ask this Court to decide who won the election; they only ask that the Court enjoin the clear violations of the Electors Clause of the Constitution.”

6. Texas Brings the Quotes
The Texas attorney general’s legal team excelled in its briefing. With clear and striking facts and detailed and persuasive argument, Texas has made a solid case for Supreme Court involvement, and along the way, the legal team included some stellar quotes—some from years past and some new classics, such as this opener:

Our Country stands at an important crossroads. Either the Constitution matters and must be followed, even when some officials consider it inconvenient or out of date, or it is simply a piece of parchment on display at the National Archives. We ask the Court to choose the former.

If the Supreme Court does intervene, it will indeed be “in the spirit of Marbury v. Madison,” as Texas put it.

     Thread Starter
 

12/10/2020 3:53 pm  #29


Re: the kraken?

i will bet you one hundred rounds of 5.56 that it gets thrown out, declined to be heard, postponed until after bidens inauguration, or otherwise laughed out of the building. seriously, i will make that bet with you - if it even gets *heard before the full court* i will buy you a hundred rounds, if it doesnt, you buy me. care to take that bet?


 

12/10/2020 5:09 pm  #30


Re: the kraken?

erika wrote:

i will bet you one hundred rounds of 5.56 that it gets thrown out, declined to be heard, postponed until after bidens inauguration, or otherwise laughed out of the building. seriously, i will make that bet with you - if it even gets *heard before the full court* i will buy you a hundred rounds, if it doesnt, you buy me. care to take that bet?

not me

I'm not qualified to judge the merits of texas's claim

...and...

as a natural rights libertarian minarchist, I got not one jot of faith in the system
 

     Thread Starter
 

12/10/2020 8:57 pm  #31


Re: the kraken?

griff wrote:

Muddy waters or accidental truth? Meanwhile the fundraiser is around $200M mostly from mailings to my Dad.

would not be the first time they said the quiet part out loud.








also would not be the first time they've tried to shout down the opposition to reality by just talking loud and using circular breathing.


Be Just And Fear Not
 

12/11/2020 10:02 am  #32


Re: the kraken?


If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis Brandeis
 

12/11/2020 3:07 pm  #33


Re: the kraken?

henry_quirk wrote:

missouri
alabama
arkansas
florida
indiana
kansas
louisiana
mississippi
montana
nebraska
north dakota
oklahoma
south carolina
south dakota
tennessee
utah
west virginia
arizona

all signed on to the brief that backs the texas suit

Now I want to have my state sue Kentucky for their coal mining practices.


Weaponized Funk
 

12/11/2020 5:41 pm  #34


Re: the kraken?

So all the red states sued the swing states for swinging the wrong way..? Totally good and normal.

Last edited by Flint (12/11/2020 5:51 pm)


signature s c h m i g n a t u r e
 

12/11/2020 7:11 pm  #35


Re: the kraken?

     Thread Starter
 

12/11/2020 9:06 pm  #36


Re: the kraken?

henry_quirk wrote:

https://www.supremecourt.gov/orders/courtorders/121120zr_p860.pdf

disappointin' but not surprisin'

Are you unsurprised because the prospect of State T claiming States G, M, P, and W acted illegally in their respective states is ridiculous on its face?  How would T feel about C taking T to court about, oh, say, open carry laws?

Or are you unsurprised because all of Trump's cases are really about drawing attention to himself irrespective of the reality of the mathematics of the election and you, yourself, accept reality?

Or, perhaps you believe that SCOTUS is a turncoat part of teh Deep State?

Or... dunno.  why are you not surprised?  As I and everyone are unsurprised, including I sincerely believe, the AG of Texas?


Be Just And Fear Not
 

12/11/2020 9:09 pm  #37


Re: the kraken?

BigV wrote:

henry_quirk wrote:

https://www.supremecourt.gov/orders/courtorders/121120zr_p860.pdf

disappointin' but not surprisin'

Are you unsurprised because the prospect of State T claiming States G, M, P, and W acted illegally in their respective states is ridiculous on its face?  How would T feel about C taking T to court about, oh, say, open carry laws?

Or are you unsurprised because all of Trump's cases are really about drawing attention to himself irrespective of the reality of the mathematics of the election and you, yourself, accept reality?

Or, perhaps you believe that SCOTUS is a turncoat part of teh Deep State?

Or... dunno.  why are you not surprised?  As I and everyone are unsurprised, including I sincerely believe, the AG of Texas?

 
I'm unsurprised cuz, as I say just up-thread, as a natural rights libertarian minarchist, I got not one jot of faith in the system

     Thread Starter
 

12/11/2020 9:16 pm  #38


Re: the kraken?

then ...?????????

wouldn't you be "SURPRISED" that logic and reason prevailed, given your baseline of unfaith?


Be Just And Fear Not
 

12/11/2020 9:28 pm  #39


Re: the kraken?

BigV wrote:

then ...?????????

wouldn't you be "SURPRISED" that logic and reason prevailed, given your baseline of unfaith?

 
reason & logic didn't prevail: the SC denied solely cuz it believes TX has no standin', not cuz of any stated lack of merit in TX's suit

seems to me: precedent prevailed...which ain't synonymous with reason & logic

as for me, my lack of surprise, my unfaith: it's unsatisfyin', I know, that I'm not tantrumin' or wailin' or grumpin'...sorry I can't be more entertainin'

     Thread Starter
 

12/11/2020 9:54 pm  #40


Re: the kraken?

Are you unsurprised because the prospect of State T claiming States G, M, P, and W acted illegally in their respective states is ridiculous on its face?

as I say: the SC denied TX cuz the SC sez TX has no standin'

the meat, which the SC did not comment on, is about state legislatures bein' circumvented...on the face of it, it seems reasonable to question such circumventin' even if TX has no right to be the questioner...seems like it's up to the citizens of those states to decide


How would T feel about C taking T to court about, oh, say, open carry laws?

oh, T wouldn't like it all...but what does that have to with anything?

if C thought T was bypassin' its lawmakers, and that T's workarounds were potentially harmful to C, I expect C would do the same T did...course, now it's moot  cuz the SC has set precedent


Or are you unsurprised because all of Trump's cases are really about drawing attention to himself irrespective of the reality of the mathematics of the election and you, yourself, accept reality?

that ORANGE MAN is a attention hog is not surprisin' (I knew that before I hired him in '16)...the math, as I reckon it, is unsettled and is likely to remain unsettled...reality is: we're probably gonna have a houseplant and a whore in the Big Chairs for at least 4 years


Or, perhaps you believe that SCOTUS is a turncoat part of teh Deep State?

the judiciary, like the executive & legislative is way overrated, part of a system I have no faith in

as for the deep state: that ain't my bugaboo...my bugaboo is just the state

     Thread Starter
 

12/12/2020 9:40 am  #41


Re: the kraken?

henry_quirk wrote:

  seems to me: precedent prevailed...which ain't synonymous with reason & logic

IOW "I cannot deal with reality so I want to make more excuses".  Get over it.  Patriots are moderates. Who voted  rid America of a man with potential Nazi tendencies.

Obviously top leadership in the Republican Party is now dominated by extremists in overt denial.  So much in denial as to appeal, in mass, to the Supreme Court.  That was embarrassing.  So extremist as to ignore that they advocate destruction of democracy.  All Trump appointed justices even rejected every Trump lawsuit curtly and bluntly.  Cases were also dismissed with same blunt statements that basically said, "Are you for real?"  Including a Trump appointed Federal Judge in Pennsylvania who was a strong Trump supporter.  He even labeled Giulliani an imbecile for presenting arguments that, to be kind, obviously had no merit.

Henry, in the tradition of extremists, has only posted emotions.  Sexobon resorted to what he does best - insults.  If a moderate (and therefore a patriot), they would have condemned so many extremists in those states for trying to subvert what 20 million American voters voted for.  They want to steal the election.  Using lies that falsely claim the electron was stolen.  Classic Trump logic.  Accuse others of doing what Trump does constantly.  Demonstrated is contempt for democracy that now dominates Republican party leadership.

Extremists want what also happened in 1933 Germany.  So similar to what 1930 Germans also believed.  Extremists cannot accept that even Trump appointed judges stood up for patriotic Americans.  One even called Giulliani an imbecile.  Because he was also doing what extremists want.  To subvert American democracy.  To subvert the will of 20 million American voters.

Trump posted emotional tweets all night criticizing the entire Supreme Court.  An adult who make decisions only from his child brain.  Ego and hate that cannot accept facts and reality.  But worse, his emotions inspire extremism throughout the entire Republican Party leadership.  Amazing that so many state Attorney Generals and two thirds of Congress from the Republican party will join a lawsuit to subvert democracy.  Republican party leaders now lie routinely.  Because emotions of a child justify extremists rhetoric and beliefs.

Adults who are still children will post more insults rather then discuss facts.  They will again ignore that Trump lies - constantly.  And that extremists will lie even in courts to subvert what American voters want.  Only children would go to court with emotional accusations.  Fortunately the court system rejected every suit as only emotions - without merit - have no standing - were appealed even by an imbecile.

Extremists have problems dealing the most obvious reality  That man with a 30 second attention span lies - constantly.  And promotes hate.  A tool that empowers extremists who demonstrate contempt for democracy.
 

 

12/12/2020 10:41 am  #42


Re: the kraken?

excellent!

👍

     Thread Starter
 

12/12/2020 2:36 pm  #43


Re: the kraken?

It would appear that law schools are doing their job and our judiciary remains independent. I am pleased.


If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis Brandeis
 

12/12/2020 6:06 pm  #44


Re: the kraken?

That was a rejection to please you so you'll relax and not notice them screwing you slowly from benches coast to coast in favor of corporations who have the same rights as people and grab your property by having their local politician take it by eminent domain for them.

Say that three times fast.


 Freedom is just another word for nothin' left to lose.
 
 

12/12/2020 7:13 pm  #45


Re: the kraken?

Undertoad wrote:

All Trump appointed justices even rejected every Trump lawsuit curtly and bluntly.

USSC retains honor and acts visibly non-politically

This is true.

Undertoad wrote:

Ironically it means all dear leader's picks were solid and un-authoritarian

This does not follow.  The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.  Just because they didn't support Trump's Authoritarian tantrum/tirade/tweetstorm does not mean they're un-authoritarian.  It only means they didn't act that way this time.
 


Be Just And Fear Not
 

12/13/2020 7:37 am  #46


Re: the kraken?

I'd be careful about arguing without evidence, see how far its gotten the Trumpites. I am concerned about how this generation of right wing judges will do their day to day work short of subverting elections.


If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis Brandeis
 

12/13/2020 11:11 am  #47


Re: the kraken?

Due to being too Jesusy, Francis is not considered a legitimate authority anyway.


If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis Brandeis
 

12/13/2020 11:19 am  #48


Re: the kraken?

griff wrote:

   I am concerned about how this generation of right wing judges will do their day to day work short of subverting elections.

In this case, judges had no choice. Trump could not be more anti-American.  He would subvert elections because it hurts his ego.  Would even corrupt what 20 million Americans voted for.  Since Trump's entire life has been corruption.  Stealing an election is consistent with Trump's behavior.  He even cheats on every wife.

Extremists openly deny reality.  Only extremists admire a bully whose intelligence is based in a 30 second attention span.

Extremists appealed to courts without facts.  Hoping Trump judges will steal the election.  Even Trump judges are not that anti-America.

Patriots are moderates.  Extremists hate democracy (and other people).  An extremist explained it repeatedly.  Extremists openly admit they want to "wreck shit". In a Timothy McVeigh tradition.  Even Trump supporter flags have assault rifles on them.

But Trump judges are not that anti-American.
 

 

12/13/2020 11:27 am  #49


Re: the kraken?

Grandfather wrote:

Not to worry, the Pope will keep them on a short leash.

Chief Justice John G. Roberts, Samuel Alito, Clarence Thomas, Sonia Sotomayor, Brett Kavanaugh, and Amy Coney Barrett are Catholic.  Stephen Breyer and Elena Kagan are Jewish. Neil Gorsuch was raised Catholic.  But apparently does not attend.

 

12/13/2020 1:08 pm  #50


Re: the kraken?

In this case, judges had no choice. Trump could not be more anti-American.

speakin' of the SC here: did they have no choice cuz TX had no standin' (as they state) or did they have no choice cuz my ORANGE firecracker is anti-american (as you seem to be sayin')?

in the first: it is what it is

in the second: rule of law takes a backseat to animus

which is it, tw?

     Thread Starter
 

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