cellar2007a
The Cellar: a friendly neighborhood coffee shop, with no coffee and no shop. Established 1990.

You are not logged in. Would you like to login or register?

4/06/2021 11:45 pm  #1


Free Market

This is what happens...
https://i.postimg.cc/MKR5ws4G/freemarket.jpg


 Freedom is just another word for nothin' left to lose.
 
 

4/07/2021 9:17 am  #2


Re: Free Market

There is no such thing as a free market.  There never has been, for the same reason there has never been "true communism" or a "minarchist" government.

That reason being illustrated, if not explained, by your example.

Last edited by Luce (4/07/2021 9:17 am)


Weaponized Funk
 

4/07/2021 9:26 am  #3


Re: Free Market

Those of us in school in the 60s/80s will remember when the USSR was absolutely touted and even admired by many as true Communism

...right up to the point where Stalin's roughly 30M historical deaths became common knowledge due to glasnost -- and then those very same people started to say that, no, acktually, it was not true Communism
 

 

4/07/2021 10:11 am  #4


Re: Free Market

Undertoad wrote:

Those of us in school in the 60s/80s will remember when the USSR was absolutely touted and even admired by many as true Communism

...right up to the point where Stalin's roughly 30M historical deaths became common knowledge due to glasnost -- and then those very same people started to say that, no, acktually, it was not true Communism
 

Thing is, even they admitted it wasn't true communism.

One of the loyalty slogans they used to have people say was "I believe that we shall see true communism in our lifetime".

Any political system that relies on human purity of thought in *any* respect will fail.  Our system is somewhat successful because it was built around the idea that humans often act like idiots, rather than assuming humans would be smart most of the time.


Weaponized Funk
 

4/07/2021 11:05 am  #5


Re: Free Market

One of the loyalty slogans they used to have people say was "I believe that we shall see true communism in our lifetime".

I cannot easily find a source for that claim
 

 

4/07/2021 11:33 am  #6


Re: Free Market

It was a world war two era slogan.  

It was later "refined" by Khrushchev.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism_in_20_years


Weaponized Funk
 

4/07/2021 11:36 am  #7


Re: Free Market

In any case, I think we can agree that "true communism" is a unicorn, and that the concept of communism doesn't actually function in anything larger than a tribal society.

It, alongside the other cases I mentioned, does not function under general circumstances, because it expects that humans will always do what is best for themselves or - in the case of collectivism - for the group, which is patently silly.


Weaponized Funk
 

4/07/2021 7:31 pm  #8


Re: Free Market

there has never been...a "minarchist" government.

That's cuz a gov that does nuthin' but protect individual life, liberty, and property, that favors no man over another, that is strictly under-heel, isn't a popular notion among those who know best.

https://i.ibb.co/JrDXvbb/33-BAD4-D2-A866-472-A-A214-1-D4-E531-B2-F19.png


guns & gold
 

4/07/2021 7:34 pm  #9


Re: Free Market

Our system is somewhat successful because it was built around the idea that humans often act like idiots, rather than assuming humans would be smart most of the time.


https://i.ibb.co/17fK5TQ/EC0-FD3-D8-7578-44-F2-80-F6-CF4978585-FFA.jpg


guns & gold
 

4/07/2021 11:26 pm  #10


Re: Free Market

That could be true, all the neighboring tribes might be killing twice as many every day. LoL


 Freedom is just another word for nothin' left to lose.
 
     Thread Starter
 

4/08/2021 12:03 am  #11


Re: Free Market

'Every nation gets the government it deserves.'

Joseph de Maistre
French philosopher, 1753-1821
 


"Nothin' seems that weird anymore"

Lo Fidelity Allstars
 

4/08/2021 10:02 am  #12


Re: Free Market

henry_quirk wrote:

there has never been...a "minarchist" government.

That's cuz a gov that does nuthin' but protect individual life, liberty, and property, that favors no man over another, that is strictly under-heel, isn't a popular notion among those who know best.

No, it's because the majority of people don't want anarchy.


Weaponized Funk
 

4/08/2021 1:36 pm  #13


Re: Free Market

Luce wrote:

henry_quirk wrote:

there has never been...a "minarchist" government.

That's cuz a gov that does nuthin' but protect individual life, liberty, and property, that favors no man over another, that is strictly under-heel, isn't a popular notion among those who know best.

No, it's because the majority of people don't want anarchy.

 
How is minarchy, anarchy?

'splain it to me, luce.

This oughta be good...  🤔


guns & gold
 

4/08/2021 2:15 pm  #14


Re: Free Market

Undertoad wrote:

...and then those very same people...

I'm admittedly guilty of this myself, but I do try to avoid the "magical Venn diagram" fallacy.

idk maybe you're referring to two different editorials written by the same person
 


signature s c h m i g n a t u r e
 

4/08/2021 8:12 pm  #15


Re: Free Market

I'm not ready to tag in, but I love this thread.


Be Just And Fear Not
 

4/09/2021 8:41 am  #16


Re: Free Market

It's true I was thinking mainly of the faculty of Harvard

 

4/09/2021 9:07 am  #17


Re: Free Market

henry_quirk wrote:

Luce wrote:

henry_quirk wrote:

there has never been...a "minarchist" government.

That's cuz a gov that does nuthin' but protect individual life, liberty, and property, that favors no man over another, that is strictly under-heel, isn't a popular notion among those who know best.

No, it's because the majority of people don't want anarchy.

 
How is minarchy, anarchy?

'splain it to me, luce.

This oughta be good... 🤔

I was just going to ask you the same thing.  I can't see any functional difference in minarchy and anarchy.  Both are failures for the same reason communism is a failure.  
 


Weaponized Funk
 

4/09/2021 11:08 am  #18


Re: Free Market

Luce wrote:

henry_quirk wrote:

Luce wrote:

No, it's because the majority of people don't want anarchy.

 
How is minarchy, anarchy?

'splain it to me, luce.

This oughta be good... 🤔

I was just going to ask you the same thing.  I can't see any functional difference in minarchy and anarchy.  Both are failures for the same reason communism is a failure.  
 

 
You see no difference cuz you're ignorant. By your own admission elsewhere, you make no distinction between the strains of libertarianism (meaning: you don't know jack).

So: I'll educate you...

A minarchy offers defense of individual life, liberty, and property by way of constabulary, courts, border patrol, and militia. And that's all it does. Where there's no claim of violation against life, liberty, or property, the minarchist government (not really government at all...a proxy is what it is) does nuthin' but sit around and collect it's small paycheck. Minarchism is like an insurance policy you hope you never need, but are glad you have. You can find the foundations for minarchism in the work of John Locke, Thomas Reid, and Frederic Bastiat (I posted his work, The Law, in-forum). The minimal government that serves a narrow role is not a new or startling idea. Our own Declaration and Constitution cry for it. The Articles of Confederation are closest we've gotten to it.

No, minarchy is not impractical; it's simply discouraged, by as I say, those who know best, those who'd leash us for our own good.

An anarchy (take ancap, for example), this is your fanciful notion. It offes nuthin' but license...truly, anarchism is your Darwinistic survival of the fittest, might makes right world. Amoral, perhaps even immoral.

Anarchy is nuthin' like minarchy.

Your turn, slightly less ignorant person.


guns & gold
 

4/09/2021 11:40 am  #19


Re: Free Market

And, I'm thinkin' you're ignorant too about exactly what a free market is.

Want I should educate you on it as well?

Say yes, luce: I'm in a pontficatin' mood.


guns & gold
 

4/09/2021 12:10 pm  #20


Re: Free Market

henry_quirk wrote:

 
You see no difference cuz you're ignorant. By your own admission elsewhere, you make no distinction between the strains of libertarianism (meaning: you don't know jack).

Likewise, I do not make distinction between various sects of protestantism.  They also cannot agree on basic definitions, and they also believe in things that are not falsifiable.

So: I'll educate you...

A minarchy offers defense of individual life, liberty, and property by way of constabulary, courts, border patrol, and militia. And that's all it does.

So what you're telling me is that you expect a government run by humans to maintain a standing army, police force, and court system and not get any scope creep?  By which I mean "galloping scope creep"?

Also, did you mean militia as in standing army, or as in militia as it was used from 1776 to 1820?

Where there's no claim of violation against life, liberty, or property, the minarchist government (not really government at all...a proxy is what it is) does nuthin' but sit around and collect it's small paycheck.

Let me ask you this:  If I dump waste out of the back door of my plant, is that something you can get recourse to by means of this tiny government?

The minimal government that serves a narrow role is not a new or startling idea. Our own Declaration and Constitution cry for it. The Articles of Confederation are closest we've gotten to it.

The articles of confederation failed.  Why would we pursue a failed option?

No, minarchy is not impractical; it's simply discouraged, by as I say, those who know best, those who'd leash us for our own good.

So it's an impossibility.

 


Weaponized Funk
 

4/09/2021 12:33 pm  #21


Re: Free Market

Undertoad wrote:

I was thinking mainly of the faculty of Harvard

cool and good
 


signature s c h m i g n a t u r e
 

4/09/2021 2:41 pm  #22


Re: Free Market

Likewise, I do not make distinction between various sects of protestantism.  They also cannot agree on basic definitions, and they also believe in things that are not falsifiable.

But I bet you make distinctions between Repubs and Dems, two essentially meaningless categories that legislators adhere to, promulgatin' all manner of silly nonfalsfiable nonsense to domesticate ignorami such as yourself.


So what you're telling me is that you expect a government run by humans to maintain a standing army, police force, and court system and not get any scope creep?  By which I mean "galloping scope creep"?

There's always gonna be folks who want to murder, steal, rape, and generally profit from bein' elevated to authority (which is the root of any and all scope creep). for the murderer, the thief, the rapist you have the constabulary and courts. For the legislator (who may pop up among constables, judges or patrolmen) you have the militia.

In context: the millita is the citizenry. When the minarchistic proxy oversteps, when it acts as anything other than redress against violations of life, liberty, or property, the millita has an obligation to excise the offender.


Let me ask you this:  If I dump waste out of the back door of my plant, is that something, which where  you can get recourse to by means of this tiny governmen

Sounds like a potential property even life violation to me. If your sludge damages my property, demonstrably injuries my life, I can, assumin' you refuse responsibility or simply don't believe me, take the matter to court and prove my case.


The articles of confederation failed.

No, they were rejected in favor of sumthin' marketed as an improvement (which most certainly it was and is not).


So it's an impossibility.
 
Nah. Ignorant folks like yourself simply have to disabuse yourselves of the idea that puttin' parasites and wouid-be slavers in charge of your life is a good thing.

Growin' a pair would be a good start.


guns & gold
 

4/09/2021 2:50 pm  #23


Re: Free Market

henry_quirk wrote:

But I bet you make distinctions between Repubs and Dems, two essentially meaningless categories that legislators adhere to, promulgatin' all manner of silly nonfalsfiable nonsense to domesticate ignorami such as yourself.

I do, because they directly affect me.  Those distinctions will change as years go by, as both parties change.

There's always gonna be folks who want to murder, steal, rape, and generally profit from bein' elevated to authority (which is the root of any and all scope creep). for the murderer, the thief, the rapist you have the constabulary and courts. For the legislator (who may pop up among constables, judges or patrolmen) you have the militia.

In context: the millita is the citizenry. When the minarchistic proxy oversteps, when it acts as anything other than redress against violations of life, liberty, or property, the millita has an obligation to excise the offender.

But what happens when the Canadians invade us for the potato mines in Idaho?  Or Mexico decides it wants Arizona back?  You think a militia is going to stop a standing army?

Sounds like a potential property even life violation to me. If your sludge damages my property, demonstrably injuries my life, I can, assumin' you refuse responsibility or simply don't believe me, take the matter to court and prove my case.

Using what guidelines?  There's no EPA, so you're going to have to start from scratch, right down to what counts as an MCL.

No, they were rejected in favor of sumthin' marketed as an improvement (which most certainly it was and is not).

No, they failed.  As quoted in the federalist papers, people were beginning to prefer a return to monarchy over anarchy.

Nah. Ignorant folks like yourself simply have to disabuse yourselves of the idea that puttin' parasites and wouid-be slavers in charge of your life is a good thing.

What you seem to be expecting is for human nature to change to match up to your ivory tower ideals, in the same manner that communists expect that sort of thing.

Growin' a pair would be a good start.

Your attempts at being insulting aren't helping your case.
 


Weaponized Funk
 

4/09/2021 3:11 pm  #24


Re: Free Market

I do, because they directly affect me.  Those distinctions will change as years go by, as both parties change.

In a minarchy they wouldn't exist 'cept mebbe as social clubs.


But what happens when the Canadians invade us for the potato mines in Idaho?  Or Mexico decides it wants Arizona back?  You think a militia is going to stop a standing army?

The Border Patrol shoots them.


Using what guidelines?  There's no EPA, so you're going to have to start from scratch, right down to what counts as an MCL.

Havin' a minarchy doesn't mean you throw out established science or discard what and who works, ignoramus.


No, they failed.  As quoted in the federalist papers, people were beginning to prefer a return to monarchy over anarchy.

Oh yes, The Federalist Papers...written by the promoters of the Constitution, who couldn't possibly know what the people wanted (damn straight they knew what they wanted, though). 


Your attempts at being insulting aren't helping your case.

What case? Your mind was made up before I started. Absolutely nuthin' I write, or my niceness as I write it, will make a damn bit of difference to you or anyone else in this place.

Really, you expect me to believe you're open to anything I post here?
 


guns & gold
 

4/09/2021 3:15 pm  #25


Re: Free Market

henry_quirk wrote:

I do, because they directly affect me.  Those distinctions will change as years go by, as both parties change.

In a minarchy they wouldn't exist 'cept mebbe as social clubs.

Absurd.  Humans will always form associations to control their environment.


But what happens when the Canadians invade us for the potato mines in Idaho?  Or Mexico decides it wants Arizona back?  You think a militia is going to stop a standing army?

The Border Patrol shoots them.

So police as military?  Sounds kind of ominous.


Using what guidelines?  There's no EPA, so you're going to have to start from scratch, right down to what counts as an MCL.

Havin' a minarchy doesn't mean you throw out established science or discard what and who works, ignoramus.

Sure.  But who gets to rule on what the established science says?  Right now we have the EPA.  Under a minarchy, who would determine how much is too much?


No, they failed.  As quoted in the federalist papers, people were beginning to prefer a return to monarchy over anarchy.

Oh yes, The Federalist Papers...written by the promoters of the Constitution, who couldn't possibly know what the people wanted (damn straight they knew what they wanted, though).

Do you have any evidence tot he contrary?


Your attempts at being insulting aren't helping your case.

What case? Your mind was made up before I started. Absolutely nuthin' I write, or my niceness as I write it, will make a damn bit of difference to you or anyone else in this place.

Really, you expect me to believe you're open to anything I post here?
 

So then what is your point?  Who are you trying to convince?
 


Weaponized Funk
 

Board footera