The Cellar » Getting wound up by your media?

xoxoxoBruce · 10/14/2023 2:32 pm

I read the US has established flights to evacuate US citizens from Israel, but has made no move I've heard of to remove US citizens from Gaza.

Anon · 10/14/2023 3:15 pm

They're trying to coordinate ground evacuation corridors with Egypt; but, US citizens in Gaza are essentially on their own.

From the State Department:
(Updated October 14, 2023)

Gaza – Do Not Travel

Do not travel due to terrorism, civil unrest, and armed conflict.

The U.S. government is unable to provide routine or emergency services to U.S. citizens in Gaza as U.S. government employees are prohibited from traveling there. Hamas, a U.S. government-designated foreign terrorist organization, controls the security infrastructure in Gaza. The security environment within Gaza and on its borders is dangerous and volatile. Sporadic mortar or rocket fire and corresponding Israeli military responses may occur at any time. During periods of unrest or armed conflict, the crossings between Gaza with Israel and Egypt may be closed.If you decide to travel to Gaza:

Be prepared for an indefinite stay as the crossings between Gaza with Israel and Egypt can close without advance notice and for long periods during times of unrest and armed conflict.

Have a plan for entering and departing Gaza that does not rely on U.S. government assistance.

tw · 10/15/2023 10:02 am

Happy Monkey wrote:
they won one election decades ago, and then eliminated the competition.

Exactly. Hamas drove the PLO out of Gaza.

tw · 10/15/2023 10:04 am

Anon wrote:
They're trying to coordinate ground evacuation corridors with Egypt;

Egypt says, quite bluntly, if no humanitarian aid goes in, then no Americans or Europeans can leave. You have to admire the Egyptian's stance.

Last edited by tw (10/15/2023 10:05 am)

Anon · 10/15/2023 9:33 pm

Egypt should be willing to do what's right, for the Americans and Europeans trapped in Gaza, just for the sake of doing what's right and not make it conditional on what anyone else does outside of Gaza. The Egyptians have demonstrated second world ethics. They can do that since they're not plagued by moderates.

tw · 10/16/2023 8:14 am

Egypt is doing what is right. A few hundred is irrelevant compared to the lives of 2 million? Just because those few are Americans and European means only they are relevant? Nonsense. A thinking so prevalent in disinformation sources such as Fox News.

Israel must decide whether to solve this by massacring half a million. Or undo the extremist (Likud) created mess by doing what will take at least ten years. The Americans and Europeans are only more pawns in a situation where all lives on all sides have minimal value. Because extremists dominate on both sides.

Anon · 10/16/2023 5:40 pm

tw wrote:
...Egypt is doing what is right. A few hundred is irrelevant compared to the lives of 2 million? Just because those few are Americans and European means only they are relevant?....

A classic example of the end justifying the means. The pinnacle of second world ethics.

tw · 10/16/2023 5:55 pm

Anon wrote:
... example of the end justifying the means.

Rhetoric contributes nothing constructive or useful. If you have a fact, then post it. Not an emotional and erroneous conclusion.

Nobody cares about a few hundred foreigners when 2 million people face a massacre. A reality and a hard fact. Address that - not some irrelevant mumbo-jumbo.

America apparently offered to provide military security for the Rafah crossing. So that both humanitarian aid and refugees could cross. Israel rejected it completely without saying why. Other then some silly comment about insecurity.

Egypt also refused to open that gateway - that is not through Israel. Because the Israelis continue to threaten Egyptian lives at that border crossing. An example of facts - not rhetoric.

Next post is also facts that everyone should know.

tw · 10/16/2023 6:10 pm

From the BBC:

Israel was warned by Egypt of potential violence three days before Hamas' deadly cross-border raid, a US congressional panel chairman has said.

House of Representatives Foreign Affairs Committee head Michael McCaul told reporters of the alleged warning.

Israeli PM Benjamin Netanyahu described the reports as "absolutely false".

.

We know that Egypt has warned the Israelis three days prior that an event like this could happen," Mr McCaul told reporters following a closed-door intelligence briefing on Wednesday for lawmakers ...

.

On Wednesday, Mr Netanyahu described any suggestion that Israel had received a specific warning in advance of the deadly incursion as "totally fake news".

Likud has a credibility problem. Having been reelected mostly on a promise that only Likud could provide security. One BBC reporter, that has been there for nine days, said literally every Israeli he talked to is angry about what Hamas did. But are much more angry at Netanyahu.

And so again, what is the solution? Either it must be a massacre or it must be a negotiated settlement. With Likud, a massacre is their only alternative. For reasons both political and in that party's extremist attitude. Questions based in reality; not rhetoric.

Anon · 10/16/2023 6:13 pm

tw wrote:
...Nobody cares about a few hundred foreigners when 2 million people face a massacre. A reality and a hard fact....

[bold mine]

Nope, just hyperbole. Another characteristic of second world ethics.

Anon · 10/16/2023 6:17 pm

tw wrote:
...And so again, what is the solution?...

Moderates have to own up to their responsibilities.

Don't hold your breath.

tw · 10/16/2023 6:32 pm

Anon wrote:
Moderates have to own up to their responsibilities.

Moderates are not in charge. Only extremists are in power ... on both sides. Extremists on each side, furthermore, make it extremely difficult for moderates to take power on the other side. Made worse by some, even here, who only blame one side and not the other.

We have Trump as the perfect example. Moderates took power in Iran. Then Trump screwed up everything. Making things so miserable in Iran that extremists retook power.

It could have been worse. Trump had ordered a unilateral attack on Iran. Details of how hard senior officials worked to avert that 'Pearl Harbor' attack are not yet fully known. But apparently, the US was only ten minutes from attacking Iran only because an extremist wanted to "Wag the Dog".

Top secret military plans for that attack. Those are secret documents that Trump was showing people in Mar-a-Lago. Trump was even recorded saying he probably should not have them. Another example of an extremist - in denial. Just like Netanyahu.

Anon · 10/16/2023 6:59 pm

tw wrote:
Anon wrote:
Moderates have to own up to their responsibilities.

Moderates are not in charge. Only extremists are in power ... on both sides. Extremists on each side, furthermore, make it extremely difficult for moderates to take power on the other side. Made worse by some, even here, who only blame one side and not the other...

Moderates everywhere have to own up to their responsibilities.

Can't just talk the talk... gotta walk the walk.

tw · 10/17/2023 9:19 am

Unfortunately many moderates do not appreciate how much work is necessary. Since so much hate and distrust has existed there for 70 years. A solution without a massacre would require at least 10 years. Some moderates have a business school attitude. Want solutions this quarter or this year. That can never happen when extremists (on both sides) are protected by the emotional.

For example, when Palestinians and Israelis were seriously talking peace, the Israelis promised Yasser Arafat that they would return to the table with a detailed map of country borders. Then Likud members of that Israeli negotiation team objected strenuously. Resulting in no map.

Palestinians were indignant. As they should be. Israelis started drawing a map on a napkin. Best they could do because of extremists (Likud) on their negotiation team.

Likud learned from the settlement with Egypt. Extremist (anti-humanity) settlers had to be forcefully removed from the Sinai by Israeli troops. Likud said that would never happen again. Extremists believe it is their right to steal over's lands. Netanyahu has all but said so.

Those people make any settlement by moderates almost impossible.

Extremists are now subverting the Israeli judicial structure. Since extremists (such as Netanyahu) even believe it is their right to commit crimes. Netanyahu's solution to his crimes - destroy the courts. Again, making it harder for moderates (law abiding citizens) to even file suit or prosecute criminal extremists.

Too many do not understand that work done today will yield fruits in 10 and 20 years. After all, we are discussing a war that has been ongoing for 70 years.

Diaphone Jim · 10/17/2023 2:46 pm

Telling contrast. If links fails Google Re'im kibbutz.
[url=https://www.google.com/maps/place/31%C2%B023'10.0%22N+34%C2%B027'37.0%22E/@31.4053947,34.4412433,10531m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m4!3m3!8m2!3d31.386111!4d34.460278?hl=en&entry=ttu]31°23'10.0"N 34°27'37.0"E - Google Maps[/url]

Last edited by Diaphone Jim (10/17/2023 2:48 pm)

Anon · 10/17/2023 4:25 pm

tw wrote:
...Some moderates have a business school attitude. Want solutions this quarter or this year....

...Too many do not understand that work done today will yield fruits in 10 and 20 years. After all, we are discussing a war that has been ongoing for 70 years.

Not to mention, as has long been said, Americans think in terms of 4-year Presidential election cycles while in the Middle East they think in terms of generations.

tw · 10/17/2023 7:49 pm

Anon wrote:
... while in the Middle East they think in terms of generations.

That would be over three generations of hate.

We came closest to nuclear war (Defcon 3) with the USSR was over an Arab Israeli war in the Middle East. Hate is also contagious.

Anon · 10/18/2023 9:26 pm

On the road of life, there are passengers and there are drivers. Extremists put the pedal to the metal whilst moderates are just along for the ride... but they pay for the gas, maintenance, insurance and any tickets there are along the way. The role of moderates is to ask the big important questions like - Are we there yet?

tw · 10/19/2023 9:50 am

Anon wrote:
Extremists put the pedal to the metal whilst moderates are just along for the ride...

... only when voters are so dumb (emotional like a child) as to vote for extremists. Such as Goldwater who advocated nuking N Vietnam.

Nixon also (almost) nuked N Vietnam. He only changed his mind when massive anti-war demonstrations were simultaneous from Boston to LA . Moderates rose up. Did not, then, know they had stopped a nuclear war. Eventually we drove that crook from office. When his extremist allies even realized he had become an albatross.

Or Curtis LeMay who said if two Americans and only one Russian survives a nuclear war, then America wins. Fortunately a moderate (Kennedy) expose him. Then sent McNamara to constantly sit in the same room so that LeMay did not create a nuclear war.

Khrushchev was another moderate who successfully kept his extremists in line. Unfortunately, doing so cost Khrushchev his job.

Obama was a moderate who could then make decisions from facts. Measured a risk. Got bin Laden. George Jr extremist were presented what we now know was a viable plan to take out bin Laden in the mountains of Tora Bora. Being an administration of extremists, they feared and refused.

Same extremists also told George Sr that Kuwait could not be saved. Margaret Thatcher (in Denver) told George Sr, "this will not stand". Having finally been told reality from someone who comes from reality, what resulted was Desert Shield followed by Desert Storm. A moderate did not let extremists drive the car.

Extremists make decisions from their emotions. Same extremists advocated a Pearl Harbor style attack on Saddam. Using the WTC as an excuse. Extremists who, due to their ignorance and by ignoring military professionals, protected Saddam in early 1990s. Being extremists, they knew more than the Generals.

One extremists had Marines in Lebanon without bullets in their guns. Fearing they might accidentally shoot innocent people. So the Marine guard had no bullets when a bomber exploded his vehicle under 200+ sleeping Marines.

"I know more than the Generals" is a famous quote from another extremist (foolishly elected by the most naive and extremist Americans). Who was apparently only ten minutes from Pearl Harboring Iran to "Wag the Dog". Fortunately enough moderates rallied to vote the hate monger out.

Extremists only drive the car when we so hate the country as to not vote for moderates. 6 January also demonstrates an anti-American mindset. Fortunately moderates prevailed. And are now prosecuting those anti-Americans.

Last edited by tw (10/19/2023 9:52 am)

Anon · 10/19/2023 9:51 pm

tw wrote:
Anon wrote:
Extremists put the pedal to the metal whilst moderates are just along for the ride...
...Extremists only drive the car when we so hate the country as to not vote for moderates....

People don't vote for moderates when they want to shush those back seat drivers.

tw · 10/20/2023 10:09 am

Concern for this latest battle of a 50 year war demonstrates the contradiction of tactical and strategic objectives. Massive aid is provided to Israel due to a sudden conflict (that Netanyahu was warned of and intentionally ignored). For tactical reasons.

But this continuing conflict is traceable to moneys and support provided by America. Israel receives more US aid than any other nation. Israel extremists are not interested in suing for peace. They are quite happy to keep stealing Palestinian land. Knowing the US will continue to arm Israel no matter what.

Strategic objective by the US is only harming Palestinians. Making conditions ideal for Arab extremists to recruit from (subvert) moderates.

Again, Israel receives more US money than any other nation - by a factor of three. If Israeli extremists were forced to consider peace (a process that required more than ten years of work), then the US would not be consider a pariah by so much of the Arab world. Especially now.

Furthermore, Netanyahu is playing both the US and UN as if fools. He promised to permit humanitarian aid. In reality, that is only 20 truck - for 2 million people. And no fuel even for hospital generators. He knows most will ignore those near zero numbers.

He ordered Palestinians to leave northern Gaza. But then continues to shell and bomb those road and buildings in southern Gaza. As so many western news sources now report.

Why did Egypt shut down Rafah? Same reason why those 20 truck still cannot move. Israeli bombing of those roads, at the border, means repairs will take days. That assumes the construction crews from Egypt can do work without more Israeli weapon attacks.

Israel's objectives are slowly and maybe becoming apparent. Israeli extremists may be planning to expropriate northern Gaza for settlements.

Last edited by tw (10/20/2023 10:10 am)

Anon · 10/20/2023 7:42 pm

Israel has been a professional victim, milking the global Zionist cash cow, for years now. They only fight hard enough: or, negotiate well enough to maintain the status quo. That's their meat and potatoes... land grabs are gravy. Nothing new here.

toranokaze · 10/20/2023 11:44 pm

Hamas stated goal is to drive the Jews into the sea, there isn't a way to be moderate with a government that stated goal is your eradication.
Futhermore, Egypt and Jordan are 100% in the wrong by not taking in refugees from the confilit. All they are going to do by this is drive up non combaten deaths.

Last edited by toranokaze (10/20/2023 11:45 pm)

tw · 10/21/2023 6:52 am

Jordan will always be touchy about taking in many Palestinians. Since the Jordan government survived a Civil War. Palestinians tried to overthrow the Jordanian government and King.

Anon · 10/22/2023 11:49 am

Maybe we can airlift them to Central America where they could be replacements for those who have immigrated to the USA. They wouldn't have to worry about conflict with Jews in a nice Catholic country like El Salvador. Then someday, after they have learned Western ways, they too can migrate over land to the USA. We will welcome them with open arms, put them on planes, and send them to the Middle East where they will take their place as a generation of peace-loving moderates (or drug lords, depending on how things go down south) since they will have learned the frivolity of religious conflict. There are more lucrative things to fight for. Let's give them a hand up rather than a handout.