The Cellar » Getting wound up by your media?

tw · 10/16/2023 8:14 am

Egypt is doing what is right. A few hundred is irrelevant compared to the lives of 2 million? Just because those few are Americans and European means only they are relevant? Nonsense. A thinking so prevalent in disinformation sources such as Fox News.

Israel must decide whether to solve this by massacring half a million. Or undo the extremist (Likud) created mess by doing what will take at least ten years. The Americans and Europeans are only more pawns in a situation where all lives on all sides have minimal value. Because extremists dominate on both sides.

tw · 10/16/2023 5:55 pm

Anon wrote:
... example of the end justifying the means.

Rhetoric contributes nothing constructive or useful. If you have a fact, then post it. Not an emotional and erroneous conclusion.

Nobody cares about a few hundred foreigners when 2 million people face a massacre. A reality and a hard fact. Address that - not some irrelevant mumbo-jumbo.

America apparently offered to provide military security for the Rafah crossing. So that both humanitarian aid and refugees could cross. Israel rejected it completely without saying why. Other then some silly comment about insecurity.

Egypt also refused to open that gateway - that is not through Israel. Because the Israelis continue to threaten Egyptian lives at that border crossing. An example of facts - not rhetoric.

Next post is also facts that everyone should know.

tw · 10/16/2023 6:10 pm

From the BBC:

Israel was warned by Egypt of potential violence three days before Hamas' deadly cross-border raid, a US congressional panel chairman has said.

House of Representatives Foreign Affairs Committee head Michael McCaul told reporters of the alleged warning.

Israeli PM Benjamin Netanyahu described the reports as "absolutely false".

.

We know that Egypt has warned the Israelis three days prior that an event like this could happen," Mr McCaul told reporters following a closed-door intelligence briefing on Wednesday for lawmakers ...

.

On Wednesday, Mr Netanyahu described any suggestion that Israel had received a specific warning in advance of the deadly incursion as "totally fake news".

Likud has a credibility problem. Having been reelected mostly on a promise that only Likud could provide security. One BBC reporter, that has been there for nine days, said literally every Israeli he talked to is angry about what Hamas did. But are much more angry at Netanyahu.

And so again, what is the solution? Either it must be a massacre or it must be a negotiated settlement. With Likud, a massacre is their only alternative. For reasons both political and in that party's extremist attitude. Questions based in reality; not rhetoric.

tw · 10/16/2023 6:32 pm

Anon wrote:
Moderates have to own up to their responsibilities.

Moderates are not in charge. Only extremists are in power ... on both sides. Extremists on each side, furthermore, make it extremely difficult for moderates to take power on the other side. Made worse by some, even here, who only blame one side and not the other.

We have Trump as the perfect example. Moderates took power in Iran. Then Trump screwed up everything. Making things so miserable in Iran that extremists retook power.

It could have been worse. Trump had ordered a unilateral attack on Iran. Details of how hard senior officials worked to avert that 'Pearl Harbor' attack are not yet fully known. But apparently, the US was only ten minutes from attacking Iran only because an extremist wanted to "Wag the Dog".

Top secret military plans for that attack. Those are secret documents that Trump was showing people in Mar-a-Lago. Trump was even recorded saying he probably should not have them. Another example of an extremist - in denial. Just like Netanyahu.

tw · 10/17/2023 9:19 am

Unfortunately many moderates do not appreciate how much work is necessary. Since so much hate and distrust has existed there for 70 years. A solution without a massacre would require at least 10 years. Some moderates have a business school attitude. Want solutions this quarter or this year. That can never happen when extremists (on both sides) are protected by the emotional.

For example, when Palestinians and Israelis were seriously talking peace, the Israelis promised Yasser Arafat that they would return to the table with a detailed map of country borders. Then Likud members of that Israeli negotiation team objected strenuously. Resulting in no map.

Palestinians were indignant. As they should be. Israelis started drawing a map on a napkin. Best they could do because of extremists (Likud) on their negotiation team.

Likud learned from the settlement with Egypt. Extremist (anti-humanity) settlers had to be forcefully removed from the Sinai by Israeli troops. Likud said that would never happen again. Extremists believe it is their right to steal over's lands. Netanyahu has all but said so.

Those people make any settlement by moderates almost impossible.

Extremists are now subverting the Israeli judicial structure. Since extremists (such as Netanyahu) even believe it is their right to commit crimes. Netanyahu's solution to his crimes - destroy the courts. Again, making it harder for moderates (law abiding citizens) to even file suit or prosecute criminal extremists.

Too many do not understand that work done today will yield fruits in 10 and 20 years. After all, we are discussing a war that has been ongoing for 70 years.

Diaphone Jim · 10/17/2023 2:46 pm

Telling contrast. If links fails Google Re'im kibbutz.
[url=https://www.google.com/maps/place/31%C2%B023'10.0%22N+34%C2%B027'37.0%22E/@31.4053947,34.4412433,10531m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m4!3m3!8m2!3d31.386111!4d34.460278?hl=en&entry=ttu]31°23'10.0"N 34°27'37.0"E - Google Maps[/url]

Last edited by Diaphone Jim (10/17/2023 2:48 pm)

tw · 10/17/2023 7:49 pm

Anon wrote:
... while in the Middle East they think in terms of generations.

That would be over three generations of hate.

We came closest to nuclear war (Defcon 3) with the USSR was over an Arab Israeli war in the Middle East. Hate is also contagious.

tw · 10/19/2023 9:50 am

Anon wrote:
Extremists put the pedal to the metal whilst moderates are just along for the ride...

... only when voters are so dumb (emotional like a child) as to vote for extremists. Such as Goldwater who advocated nuking N Vietnam.

Nixon also (almost) nuked N Vietnam. He only changed his mind when massive anti-war demonstrations were simultaneous from Boston to LA . Moderates rose up. Did not, then, know they had stopped a nuclear war. Eventually we drove that crook from office. When his extremist allies even realized he had become an albatross.

Or Curtis LeMay who said if two Americans and only one Russian survives a nuclear war, then America wins. Fortunately a moderate (Kennedy) expose him. Then sent McNamara to constantly sit in the same room so that LeMay did not create a nuclear war.

Khrushchev was another moderate who successfully kept his extremists in line. Unfortunately, doing so cost Khrushchev his job.

Obama was a moderate who could then make decisions from facts. Measured a risk. Got bin Laden. George Jr extremist were presented what we now know was a viable plan to take out bin Laden in the mountains of Tora Bora. Being an administration of extremists, they feared and refused.

Same extremists also told George Sr that Kuwait could not be saved. Margaret Thatcher (in Denver) told George Sr, "this will not stand". Having finally been told reality from someone who comes from reality, what resulted was Desert Shield followed by Desert Storm. A moderate did not let extremists drive the car.

Extremists make decisions from their emotions. Same extremists advocated a Pearl Harbor style attack on Saddam. Using the WTC as an excuse. Extremists who, due to their ignorance and by ignoring military professionals, protected Saddam in early 1990s. Being extremists, they knew more than the Generals.

One extremists had Marines in Lebanon without bullets in their guns. Fearing they might accidentally shoot innocent people. So the Marine guard had no bullets when a bomber exploded his vehicle under 200+ sleeping Marines.

"I know more than the Generals" is a famous quote from another extremist (foolishly elected by the most naive and extremist Americans). Who was apparently only ten minutes from Pearl Harboring Iran to "Wag the Dog". Fortunately enough moderates rallied to vote the hate monger out.

Extremists only drive the car when we so hate the country as to not vote for moderates. 6 January also demonstrates an anti-American mindset. Fortunately moderates prevailed. And are now prosecuting those anti-Americans.

Last edited by tw (10/19/2023 9:52 am)

tw · 10/20/2023 10:09 am

Concern for this latest battle of a 50 year war demonstrates the contradiction of tactical and strategic objectives. Massive aid is provided to Israel due to a sudden conflict (that Netanyahu was warned of and intentionally ignored). For tactical reasons.

But this continuing conflict is traceable to moneys and support provided by America. Israel receives more US aid than any other nation. Israel extremists are not interested in suing for peace. They are quite happy to keep stealing Palestinian land. Knowing the US will continue to arm Israel no matter what.

Strategic objective by the US is only harming Palestinians. Making conditions ideal for Arab extremists to recruit from (subvert) moderates.

Again, Israel receives more US money than any other nation - by a factor of three. If Israeli extremists were forced to consider peace (a process that required more than ten years of work), then the US would not be consider a pariah by so much of the Arab world. Especially now.

Furthermore, Netanyahu is playing both the US and UN as if fools. He promised to permit humanitarian aid. In reality, that is only 20 truck - for 2 million people. And no fuel even for hospital generators. He knows most will ignore those near zero numbers.

He ordered Palestinians to leave northern Gaza. But then continues to shell and bomb those road and buildings in southern Gaza. As so many western news sources now report.

Why did Egypt shut down Rafah? Same reason why those 20 truck still cannot move. Israeli bombing of those roads, at the border, means repairs will take days. That assumes the construction crews from Egypt can do work without more Israeli weapon attacks.

Israel's objectives are slowly and maybe becoming apparent. Israeli extremists may be planning to expropriate northern Gaza for settlements.

Last edited by tw (10/20/2023 10:10 am)

toranokaze · 10/20/2023 11:44 pm

Hamas stated goal is to drive the Jews into the sea, there isn't a way to be moderate with a government that stated goal is your eradication.
Futhermore, Egypt and Jordan are 100% in the wrong by not taking in refugees from the confilit. All they are going to do by this is drive up non combaten deaths.

Last edited by toranokaze (10/20/2023 11:45 pm)

tw · 10/21/2023 6:52 am

Jordan will always be touchy about taking in many Palestinians. Since the Jordan government survived a Civil War. Palestinians tried to overthrow the Jordanian government and King.

tw · 10/22/2023 2:43 pm

Major reason why Arab nations do not want Palestinians to immigrate. That only does what Israeli extremism advocates. Stealing the land. Letting Palestinians flee only makes this problem worse. Is all but endorsing and encouraging a Zionist concept promoted by Likud. "Screw everyone else. We are the superior race."

Similar to 1930 Germany. Where an extremist party had the same philosophy. Rather ironic.

Sending Palestinians elsewhere is a tactical objective. Subverts what only matters - a strategic objective. Many people do not see the bigger picture. Biden is trying to explain it. A very fine hole exists between two American strategic principles. Many (extremists on both side) do not appreciate the bigger picture. Due to conclusions based only in soundbites and emotions. And another factor - hate.

tw · 10/23/2023 8:20 pm

Anon wrote:
A strategic withdrawal out of Palestine would let many of them live to fight another day,

Since the Palestinians have been using that strategy, then they have retaken Tel Aviv and Jerusalem? Have regains their homes in Jordan? Will retake all the best land in the West Bank?

Does not work that way. Likud is performing a superb strategy of ethnic cleansing. By doing it slowly. Then (successfully) blaming the Palestinians for objecting (when they should). Matching violence with violence.

Unfortunately ten or more Palestinians die for every Israeli. Since Palestinians do not have the powerful propaganda tools that Israeli have.

Eliminate propaganda that targets feelings (all those people crying about dead relatives). Then what remains are facts. Israel is doing the next holocaust on 2 million in Gaza. In a slow and methodical way so that the emotional will ignore that reality.

Israelis even say Palestinians should go back from where they came from. Where is that? Expect a massacre. Done in a manner that we will not see it as a massacre - only as revenge.

We learn from history. Such as a massacre at Wounded Knee. Different people. Different time. Similar event. Even done for the same purpose.

Give israelis credit. They have a superb strategy. Are successfully playing everyone. Including other Arab states.

Last edited by tw (10/23/2023 8:22 pm)

tw · 10/24/2023 10:26 am

Apparently assumed is Hamas is also the other 2 million Palestinians. And nobody is going to take in 2 million Palestinians - even when not Hamas.

Apparently Hamas never expected to be so successful. Did not expect to justify a holocaust of Palestinians. Apparently did not think beyond this latest battle. So and 50 years of war must continue.

Not enough Palestinians or Israelis have died.

Read through what Israel extremist (Likud) are advocating. A massacre. They even lie about south Gaza being the safe zone. All responsible news services report Israelis attacking both north and south Gaza.

Humanitarian aid. So tiny that it is zero. But just enough so that emotional people (ie extremists) say Israel is letting humanitarian aid in. No they are not. Numbers matter. No rhetoric.

Egypt's quite responsible conclusion remains. No humanitarian aid. Then no Americans and Europeans can leave Gaza. Israel refuses to negotiate.

BTW even Art of War makes an accurate distinction. Lives are only secondary if land is lost.

Last edited by tw (10/24/2023 10:27 am)

tw · 10/24/2023 7:37 pm

Read in Art of War many things one does not fight for. Land - always fight for. What do you say? Palestinians should abandon their lands to right wing extremist, Israeli settlers? That is a solution?

Blame all Palestinians for Hamas. When Hamas has all the weapons. And when Hamas makes it so easy to recruit; due to what Israeli extremists do.

Blame the victim? What kind of reasoning is that? One that does not also blame Israel - actually Likud - just as guilty. So blame all Jews because some extremists constantly encourage and promote this 50 years war. So as to keep stealing the land. Blame Palestinians. Then also blame all Jews.

tw · 10/24/2023 7:55 pm

Taliban were ordered to surrender bin Laden. They refused. They (and not all Afghanistan civilians) were the target. Iran was also involved. Also was not attacking civilians. Were also only attacking Taliban.

But your example, for some reason, claims we and Iran were attacking all Afghanistan civilians. Israel, on the other hand, is clearly attacking civilians. Even those in the so called safe south zone. Your reasoning is that all civilians are protecting Hamas. Then claim all Afghans were protecting bin Laden? That is your reasoning. Or the example is bogus.

Diaphone Jim · 10/25/2023 11:05 am

My hat is off to the UN Secretary General.

Flint · 10/25/2023 8:40 pm

I ain't reading 3 pages. The story is-- big bully terrorizes helpless underdog. If you taught your kids to give bullies a bloody nose, this is not a hard problem.

tw · 10/26/2023 8:06 am

That is too complicated for Anon.

Last edited by tw (10/26/2023 8:06 am)

griff · 11/13/2023 7:32 am

I'm watching Americans tear each other apart over another team issue. There are no good guys in this only victims and perpetrators.

tw · 11/13/2023 6:55 pm

In this case victims - Israeli moderates and Palestinian civilians. Perpetrators of this now 50 year war have names such as Hamas and Likud.

Frontline had an outstanding 2 hour piece on how close we once came to a total solution. Participating was Hussein of Jordan, Egypt, Assad of Syria, Chairman Arafat, Netanyahu, Barak, Madeleine Albright, a large number of other contributors, and (of course) Clinton. Absolutely amazing (long forgotten) how many reasons for extremism were confronted and eliminated at the highest levels of all governments.

But, unfortunately, extremists such as Palestinian hate mongers, Israeli Likud (always an enemy of peace) and others (including mistakes by Barak) destroyed what was almost a complete solution.

When PBS Frontline presents facts like these, the informed drop everything to learn. To appreciate how peace can be obtained. And what makes all of today's deaths necessary.

FRONTLINE: Shattered Dreams of Peace

Anyone with any opinion of what is 'not enough deaths' in Gaza and Israel should first learn from this well documented history.