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4/09/2021 3:38 pm  #26


Re: Free Market

Absurd.  Humans will always form associations to control their environment.

They do that becuz...well, go read Bastiat's The Law in this sub-forum...he explains why they do that, and why they don't have to.


So police as military?  Sounds kind of ominous.

As I say: constabulary, courts, border patrol, millitia...not seein' anything ominous...CIA, black ops, etc., that there is your ominous.


Sure.  But who gets to rule on what the established science says?  Right now we have the EPA.  Under a minarchy, who would determine how much is too much?

I imagine the courts as guided by established science. Certainly it won't be legislators guided by who writes the biggest check.


Do you have any evidence tot he contrary?

Er, where's your evidence...of failure...beyond what folks with a vested interest wrote down?

Me: I can point to the articles as sufficent for a free people. In fact, there's a side by side comparison (articles vs constitution) I can post...I'll find it and do that. 


Who are you trying to convince?
 
No one. I'm just defendn' a position, one you pissed on up-thread. If you get to decry; I get to defend. You didn't think I'd let your lil swipe at me go without comment, did you?


guns & gold
 

4/09/2021 3:47 pm  #27


Re: Free Market

henry_quirk wrote:

Absurd.  Humans will always form associations to control their environment.

They do that becuz...well, go read Bastiat's The Law in this sub-forum...he explains why they do that, and why they don't have to.

Did you mean this part?

A Fatal Tendency of Mankind

Self-preservation and self-development are common aspirations among all people. And if everyone enjoyed the unrestricted use of his faculties and the free disposition of the fruits of his labor, social progress would be ceaseless, uninterrupted, and unfailing.

But there is also another tendency that is common among people. When they can, they wish to live and prosper at the expense of others. This is no rash accusation. Nor does it come from a gloomy and uncharitable spirit. The annals of history bear witness to the truth of it: the incessant wars, mass migrations, religious persecutions, universal slavery, dishonesty in commerce, and monopolies. This fatal desire has its origin in the very nature of man — in that primitive, universal, and insuppressible instinct that impels him to satisfy his desires with the least possible pain.


Weaponized Funk
 

4/09/2021 8:32 pm  #28


Re: Free Market

Nice cherry pick.

Let's try again...

-----

A Fatal Tendency of Mankind

Self-preservation and self-development are common aspirations among all people. And if everyone enjoyed the unrestricted use of his faculties and the free disposition of the fruits of his labor, social progress would be ceaseless, uninterrupted, and unfailing.

But there is also another tendency that is common among people. When they can, they wish to live and prosper at the expense of others. This is no rash accusation. Nor does it come from a gloomy and uncharitable spirit. The annals of history bear witness to the truth of it: the incessant wars, mass migrations, religious persecutions, universal slavery, dishonesty in commerce, and monopolies. This fatal desire has its origin in the very nature of man — in that primitive, universal, and insuppressible instinct that impels him to satisfy his desires with the least possible pain.

Property and Plunderi

Man can live and satisfy his wants only by ceaseless labor; by the ceaseless application of his faculties to natural resources. This process is the origin of property.

But it is also true that a man may live and satisfy his wants by seizing and consuming the products of the labor of others. This process is the origin of plunder.

Now since man is naturally inclined to avoid pain — and since labor is pain in itself — it follows that men will resort to plunder whenever plunder is easier than work. History shows this quite clearly. And under these conditions, neither religion nor morality can stop it.

*When, then, does plunder stop? It stops when it becomes more painful and more dangerous than labor.

It is evident, then, that the proper purpose of law is to use the power of its collective force to stop this fatal tendency to plunder instead of to work. All the measures of the law should protect property and punish plunder.

But, generally, the law is made by one man or one class of men. And since law cannot operate without the sanction and support of a dominating force, this force must be entrusted to those who make the laws.

This fact, combined with the fatal tendency that exists in the heart of man to satisfy his wants with the least possible effort, explains the almost universal perversion of the law. Thus it is easy to understand how law, instead of checking injustice, becomes the invincible weapon of injustice. It is easy to understand why the law is used by the legislator to destroy in varying degrees among the rest of the people, their personal independence by slavery, their liberty by oppression, and their property by plunder. This is done for the benefit of the person who makes the law, and in proportion to the power that he holds.

Victims of Lawful Plunder

Men naturally rebel against the injustice of which they are victims. *Thus, when plunder is organized by law for the profit of those who make the law, all the plundered classes try somehow to enter — by peaceful or revolutionary means — into the making of laws. According to their degree of enlightenment, these plundered classes may propose one of two entirely different purposes when they attempt to attain political power: *Either they may wish to stop lawful plunder, or they may wish to share in it.

*Woe to the nation when this latter purpose prevails among the mass victims of lawful plunder when they, in turn, seize the power to make laws! Until that happens, the few practice lawful plunder upon the many, a common practice where the right to participate in the making of law is limited to a few persons. But then, participation in the making of law becomes universal. And then, *men seek to balance their conflicting interests by universal plunder. Instead of rooting out the injustices found in society, they make these injustices general. As soon as the plundered classes gain political power, they establish a system of reprisals against other classes. They do not abolish legal plunder. (This objective would demand more enlightenment than they possess.) Instead, they emulate their evil predecessors by participating in this legal plunder, even though it is against their own interests.

It is as if it were necessary, before a reign of justice appears, for everyone to suffer a cruel retribution — some for their evilness, and some for their lack of understanding.

The Results of Legal Plunder

It is impossible to introduce into society a greater change and a greater evil than this: the conversion of the law into an instrument of plunder.

What are the consequences of such a perversion? It would require volumes to describe them all. Thus we must content ourselves with pointing out the most striking.

In the first place, it erases from everyone's conscience the distinction between justice and injustice.

No society can exist unless the laws are respected to a certain degree. The safest way to make laws respected is to make them respectable. When law and morality contradict each other, the citizen has the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense or losing his respect for the law. These two evils are of equal consequence, and it would be difficult for a person to choose between them.

The nature of law is to maintain justice. This is so much the case that, in the minds of the people, law and justice are one and the same thing. There is in all of us a strong disposition to believe that anything lawful is also legitimate. This belief is so widespread that many persons have erroneously held that things are “just” because law makes them so. Thus, in order to make plunder appear just and sacred to many consciences, it is only necessary for the law to decree and sanction it. Slavery, restrictions, and monopoly find defenders not only among those who profit from them but also among those who suffer from them.

-----

My excerpts don't do the work, or argument, justice...read all of The Law.

*bold, underline, mine


guns & gold
 

4/09/2021 8:40 pm  #29


Re: Free Market

articles vs constitution

http://faculty.polytechnic.org/gfeldmeth/chart.art.html

Too tired to cut & paste & reformat.


guns & gold
 

4/12/2021 8:56 am  #30


Re: Free Market

Okay, what I'm seeing here is a philosopher preaching, but not offering any data to support his conclusions.

Without laws [i]and a bureaucracy to enforce them - plundering is far worse.  I offer Somalia and Monrovia as evidence.


Weaponized Funk
 

4/12/2021 12:14 pm  #31


Re: Free Market

Okay, what I'm seeing here is a philosopher preaching, but not offering any data to support his conclusions.

Only real piece of data I need to offer is that men prefer freedom to slavery.

Care to take the opposing view?


Without laws and a bureaucracy to enforce them - plundering is far worse.  I offer Somalia and Monrovia as evidence.

Apparently you missed -- or didn't understand -- the bits about the constabulary, courts, border patrol, and militia. What I'm suggestin' is minarchy, not anarchy (which, of course, has no constabulary, courts, border patrol, or millitia).

Please, try harder and keep up...yer startin' to bore me.


guns & gold
 

4/13/2021 9:41 am  #32


Re: Free Market

henry_quirk wrote:

Okay, what I'm seeing here is a philosopher preaching, but not offering any data to support his conclusions.

Only real piece of data I need to offer is that men prefer freedom to slavery.

Which means you aren't offering any data to support your assertion.  Just more preaching.

Please, try harder and keep up...yer startin' to bore me.

Okay.  Bye.

 

Last edited by Luce (4/13/2021 9:41 am)


Weaponized Funk
 

4/13/2021 10:57 am  #33


Re: Free Market

🐑 + 🐁 = you


guns & gold
 

4/14/2021 2:20 am  #34


Re: Free Market

henry_quirk wrote:

A Fatal Tendency of Mankind

Self-preservation and self-development are common aspirations among all people. And if everyone enjoyed the unrestricted use of his faculties and the free disposition of the fruits of his labor, social progress would be ceaseless, uninterrupted, and unfailing.

But there is also another tendency that is common among people. When they can, they wish to live and prosper at the expense of others. This is no rash accusation. Nor does it come from a gloomy and uncharitable spirit. The annals of history bear witness to the truth of it: the incessant wars, mass migrations, religious persecutions, universal slavery, dishonesty in commerce, and monopolies. This fatal desire has its origin in the very nature of man — in that primitive, universal, and insuppressible instinct that impels him to satisfy his desires with the least possible pain. 

This is exactly why your plan won't work, letting local officials and transgressors be punished by vigilantes is not a pleasant thought.  The flaw in the system we have is people are lazy and let the government run itself without paying attention, thinking voting for president every four years is doing their part. The government does bad shit because you let them.
 


 Freedom is just another word for nothin' left to lose.
 
     Thread Starter
 

4/14/2021 4:52 am  #35


Re: Free Market

xoxoxoBruce wrote:

henry_quirk wrote:

A Fatal Tendency of Mankind

...

*This is exactly why your plan won't work, letting local officials and transgressors be punished by vigilantes is not a pleasant thought.  The flaw in the system we have is people are lazy and let the government run itself without paying attention, thinking voting for president every four years is doing their part. The government does bad shit because you let them.
 

 
Hey, Flint!

*This, Flint, is why I get bored: cherry pickin' and kindergarten analysis...over and over and over and...

It's not even good Troll work: just repetitive monkey chitter.


guns & gold
 

4/14/2021 12:25 pm  #36


Re: Free Market

"Everyone who disagrees with me is an idiot," is what snot-nosed teenagers think.


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4/14/2021 12:30 pm  #37


Re: Free Market

Flint wrote:

"Everyone who disagrees with me is an idiot," is what snot-nosed teenagers think.

 
So, we aren't gonna just leave each other be?

edit: oops, sorry, my mistake...thought you were luce...I'll make you same offer I made him: I'll refrain from pissin' on your sacred cows and you keep offa mine, yeah?

Last edited by henry_quirk (4/14/2021 12:32 pm)


guns & gold
 

4/14/2021 12:33 pm  #38


Re: Free Market

In each jar of our creamy home-made peanut butter, you'll find a golden ticket to amazing taste sensations.


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