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3/29/2022 6:31 am  #26


Re: The Gun Thread

That's a good read.


If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis Brandeis
 

3/29/2022 3:27 pm  #27


Re: The Gun Thread

tw wrote:

xoxoxoBruce wrote:

Where the fuck did you get that bullshit from? The people in the west came from the east where every male adult had a gun.

Before the Civil war, all guns were only made in two locations.  Harpers Ferry VA and in MA (I think it was Springfield).  

Wrong, guns were made by hundreds of blacksmiths/gunsmiths, every one unique, no interchangeable parts so every time it was fired was serious business because it shortened the safe useful life of the gun
Factory made guns at Springfield, and Hartford were dominant Federal buys. The Springfield Armory (Federal) made and stockpiled guns. Harpers Ferry was a Federal Armory, but I'm not sure they made any there or just stockpiled. 

Lewis and Clark were attacked by Lakota indians.  Had those Indians stolen those guns and gun powder, then the Indians would have been the most powerful military force throughout the entire west.  Even along the Mississippi River.  Nobody had anywhere near the fire power that Lewis and Clark carried.  Because guns are quite expensive and rare back then. 

Oh sure, tell me about how Indians weren’t armed in King Philip’s War, King William’s War, Queen Anne’s War, Father Rasle’s War, King George’s War, and the French and Indian War, in the northeast. These were all 50 years before Lewis & Clark. All these Indians were part of the Iroquois Nation so you think the rest of the tribes had no guns?
Granted Lewis & Clark were armed to the teeth with 1 or more guns per man but 20 men with 20 or more guns is not a match for hundreds with a few guns. Even picking up a gun from an occasional trapper they wouldn’t have powder supply. But to say Lewis & Clark were armed to the teeth is misleading, it doesn't make them a dominant force. Custer's men were armed to the teeth too.



Probate records are far from complete inventories. Probate? is that something they do in the city. By the time Grandpa died his gun(s) watch, and horse had been handed down to a son or grandson. So were the house, farm and livestock, no will, just handed down to the next generation automatically as they all lived there anyway. After the revolution they started with the deeds and surveying individual stuff.
When my grandfather bought his place preWW I, he was told the property line was the top of the mountain. The guy on the other side agreed. I don't think it's been surveyed even today, still in the same families on both sides of the mountain. There are official maps with a line drawns but I doubt an actual on the ground drive stakes survey.
The Civil war produced hundreds of thousands of guns including handguns. Many were worn out or destroyed and the South imported many more from Europeans not wanting their cotton and tobacco supply interrupted.
The big expansion west came after the war when surplus guns were plentiful.
I agree the wild west of the movies where every man wore a sixgun and a rifle scabbard on his horse is bullshit, but so is saying they weren't armed. Oh, and the ladies could pull a trigger too.


 Freedom is just another word for nothin' left to lose.
 
 

3/29/2022 5:47 pm  #28


Re: The Gun Thread

Guns made by blacksmiths were even more expensive that those made in eastern factories.  Gun were quite expensive and rare.  Even cartridges were something radical and new back then.  One had to load each bullet, one at a time in a trapdoor. That was also high tech and revolutionary.  It did not exist before the Civil war.  When expensive guns required one to load a ball and powder separately.

Guns were never the common feature found (hyped) in movies.  Almost nobody had all the guns that Maverick carried in his sleeve, boot, shin, backside, and under his hat.  That is how the naive get manipulated into myths of how the west was won.  Gun was equivalent to a luxery car.  Without the financnig that made possible it purchase.  And typically did not last very long.  Guns were not that common in the west.

Custard's men only had single shot Springfields.  And were separated from their supplies.  Quickly ran out of ammo.  Empty guns, that had to be loaded one bullet at a time, was not what the movies would have us believe.  Even bows and arrows could overrun what were the 'state of the art' guns.  That were too expensive for most civilians.  Everybody did not walk about town with a gun on his hip.  Only the elite could afford it.

So we glamorize a myth.

 

 

3/30/2022 1:05 am  #29


Re: The Gun Thread

tw wrote:

An extremist must prove his manliness by insulting others.

Aww, he thinks I'm manly.
 


These statements have not been evaluated by the FDA, EPA, FBI, DEA, CDC, or FDIC. These statements are not intended to diagnose, cause, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. If you feel you have been harmed/offended by, or, disagree with any of the above statements or images, please feel free to fuck right off.
 

3/30/2022 10:26 am  #30


Re: The Gun Thread

An extremist must constantly prove lies.

 

 

3/30/2022 2:57 pm  #31


Re: The Gun Thread

Quit tellin' 'em, and you won't hafta prove 'em.


These statements have not been evaluated by the FDA, EPA, FBI, DEA, CDC, or FDIC. These statements are not intended to diagnose, cause, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. If you feel you have been harmed/offended by, or, disagree with any of the above statements or images, please feel free to fuck right off.
 

7/15/2022 10:08 pm  #32


Re: The Gun Thread

Now I can follow the logic on this. I strongly disagree but I can follow where it goes.


However this just stops me in my tracks.
Have you ever fired a 12 gage? I have. Fired a 12 gage one handed? I did... once.
But I don't have the balls to shoot these, not even with light loads.


 Freedom is just another word for nothin' left to lose.
 
 

7/16/2022 9:06 am  #33


Re: The Gun Thread

TheNeverWas wrote:

Quit tellin' 'em, and you won't hafta prove 'em.

A perfect example.

 

10/23/2022 5:55 am  #34


Re: The Gun Thread

A well regulated militia murdered two cops in Connecticut. One was a resource officer at my brother's high school. The students and staff are a mess. My brother isn't a crier but apparently he is.

80 rounds from an AR15.

https://www.kktv.com/2022/10/17/graphic-bodycam-video-released-deadly-ambush-officers-connecticut/


If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis Brandeis
     Thread Starter
 

10/23/2022 9:14 pm  #35


Re: The Gun Thread

I don't get the invasion of privacy reason for not showing the body cam footage of the two dead cops?
It's part of their job to wear those cameras so we can see what happened.


 Freedom is just another word for nothin' left to lose.
 
 

10/24/2022 11:57 am  #36


Re: The Gun Thread

Arms manufacturers are rabidly opposed to showing the results of the use of their products.
Those results are what they plan, design, build for and sell.
Those that show children are especially anathema to the industry and Second Amendment folks. 

One shot!  His sidearm?



















 

 

11/21/2022 8:01 am  #37


Re: The Gun Thread

Another Gay bar shooting in Colorado over the weekend. Somebody needs to stop winding these mutherfuckers up.


Closer to home, Saratoga Springs police had to shoot a Vermont Sheriff's Deputy who used his weapon in a bar fight. Saratoga cops had gone 26 years without an officer involved shooting.

https://wnyt.com/top-stories/police-investigate-officer-involved-shooting/
 


If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis Brandeis
     Thread Starter
 

11/22/2022 2:50 pm  #38


Re: The Gun Thread

The shooter was the grandson of a Republican politician who applauded January 6th, though he did later walk it back.  The shooter had previously been arrested after a bomb threat standoff with police, but the charges were dropped and sealed, so they wouldn't show up in a background check.

Last edited by Happy Monkey (11/22/2022 2:50 pm)


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|_______________| We live in the nick of times.
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11/22/2022 5:24 pm  #39


Re: The Gun Thread

I wonder if these Sheriff Departments ever enforce Red Flag laws?


If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis Brandeis
     Thread Starter
 

11/22/2022 6:51 pm  #40


Re: The Gun Thread

Happy Monkey wrote:

The shooter was the grandson of a Republican politician who applauded January 6th, though he did later walk it back.

We have video of his bomb threats only because the landlord released Ring video. One wonders why he even kept it..

Heard but not confirmed: his mother is also trying to obstruct the investigation.

Demonstrated is a well worn expression. Big gun.  Little brain.

 

11/22/2022 10:53 pm  #41


Re: The Gun Thread

tw wrote:

...One wonders why he even kept it...

Always keep the evidence.

True story: one of my uncles (who I never met) was murdered in his twenties. Several years later, the murderer got a retrial on some technicality, except by then the state had lost all their files in a flood or a fire or something. They had no record of evidence against him anymore. The only reason his retrial found him guilty again was because my other uncle had saved copies of everything in a box in his attic, even though everyone told him it was morbid and he should throw it all away.

Any evidence of anything, pre-crime or post-crime, you hang onto it forever.

 

 

11/22/2022 11:13 pm  #42


Re: The Gun Thread

Doesn't Amazon keep those Ring videos?


 Freedom is just another word for nothin' left to lose.
 
 

3/04/2023 4:27 am  #43


Re: The Gun Thread

I screen grabbed this from a video by those slo-mo guys. They have all the cool toys to capture most anything.
They had this fish tank full of water with a sandbank behind it. They were testing different .22 ammo at a very low angle to the surface and most skipped across the water then kicked up butt first and tumbled over the back into the sandbank.
When they tried this 9mm "handgun round" it didn't skip out but hit the glass end wall at 164 mph, hard enough to deform the full metal jacket, and didn't break the glass. 
Even after it bounced off the glass it was still cavitating as it sank. 
How is that possible? It's probably tempered glass but it's still glass, and not bulletproof.

They decided not to try a second 9mm round and went back to the .22s.
My guess is they did the 9mm at the end but showed it in the middle of the video.



 


 Freedom is just another word for nothin' left to lose.
 
 

4/17/2023 6:09 am  #44


Re: The Gun Thread

This weekend in guns; mass shootings in Alabama and Kentucky and the NRA had their gun free convention for reasons.


If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis Brandeis
     Thread Starter
 

4/18/2023 6:43 am  #45


Re: The Gun Thread

It is difficult but only considered completely unworkable by gun advocates (binary thinkers?). There are things to be done around the edges to reduce the numbers. Red flag laws enforced, domestic abuse laws enforced, crimes while armed prosecuted fully, heavy prison terms for violent felons found armed, mandatory full background checks made available and mandatory for individual sales.Make gun ownership and use serious business by making examples of idiots like Alec Baldwin. Misuse a firearm get prosecuted.

Apparently, I am a Fudd now which is supposed to be derogatory but seems completely reasonable.

None of this would have stopped my shooter at the ACA. That would have required that society start thinking about armed citizens differently years ago. We have gotten ourselves in a bit of a death spiral where because of binary thinking(?) we oppose anything reasonable. We won't eliminate guns in this country so gun advocates need to stop with the paranoia which is only useful to pump gun sales to paranoids furthering the problem.

I think we can say now that more guns make us less safe. Unfortunately we already ran the more guns experiment.
 


If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis Brandeis
     Thread Starter
 

4/18/2023 8:31 am  #46


Re: The Gun Thread

Nobody was talking about eliminating guns - except the gun extremist who promoted fear.  We have not said every one must have an assault rifle, large capacity magazines, and 155 mm howizters.  Because it is legal and necessary.  That only inspires the adults who are still children.  Whose righteousness is justified by that gun.

The word is responsible.  Where responsibility was required, then gun violence always decreased.  Contrary to what hype proclaims.  Nobody needs an AR-15 or 155 mm howitzer - as gun extremists believe.  We know from history all over the world, more guns means increasing crime.  As demonstrated by a what is now more than one mass killings a week.    And so many kids who are not righteous because they carry a gun.

Big guns change the mindset of people.  Especially when we make little effort to make those who carry a gun more responsible.
 

 

4/18/2023 9:18 am  #47


Re: The Gun Thread

DeSantis has a good chance of being our next president.

His recent stunt allowing concealed carry throughout Florida without a permit or any training is a transparent move to play to the rest of the country and divide us.  Wedge issues will be wedge issues.  He's much younger looking and more energetic than Biden, and the Republicans will all support him without hesitation like they always do with all their candidates after the primary.  Age will play a major factor and if Dems don't circle the wagon around the petrified fossil-in-chief I think DeSantis has a really good shot at it.

The gun issue seems hopeless.  There is zero common ground between the parties and they both prefer it that way because it wins them votes.

Maybe ChatGPT can give us a solution.

 

4/18/2023 11:35 am  #48


Re: The Gun Thread

While DeSantis is not as bat-shit crazy as Trump, he is still bat-shit crazy.
I'll just have to admit it, but I think there are dozens (scores? hundreds?) of b-s c 
Republican politicians, and not many Democrat ones. 

 

4/18/2023 12:56 pm  #49


Re: The Gun Thread

It is not about Democrats vs Republicans.  It has always been about moderates verses extremists.  Extremists rationalize from emotional biases - ie conservative or liberal.  Moderates learn facts long before even trying to make a conclusion.

Fox News calls itself "Fair and Balanced".  When we know its founder, Ailes, said its purpose is to promote a right wing agenda.  Also called lies and propaganda - as Pravada also did in the USSR.  Fox News newscasters promoted the goodness of 6 January while at the same time complaining directly to the White House that Trump was "undermining everything we have worked for". Somehow that is honest?  Somehow it is "Fair and Balanced"?  They can even lie there.

Many are not officier material.   Therefore cannot tell the difference between outright lies and propaganda verses facts, numbers, and knowledge.  Many (and I fear an increasing numbers of 20 year olds) cannot even read more than 140 characters.  Resorting to TL;DR.

Same techniques were used in 1920s Germany.  So that most Germans then knew Hitler was a great leader.  Since jack boots, street violence, and big weapons were proof of righteousness.  Therefore even Jews were vermin.  All others were inferior to Aryans.   And democracy was evil.  Hate works best on adults who are still children.  Therein lies the underlying problem.

How is it solved?  There will always be (I fear) a majority who even forget how to know something - as taught in junior high science.  Saddam's WMDs clearly demonstrated this problem.  Meaning that overt lies and propaganda are where to address this problem; where a solution is necessary.

Elon Musk clearly does not understand it.  He feels that all free speech is good.  Responsibility need not exist.  Anyone can say anything without justification.  Therein lies the popularity with Santis and one even worse: Representative George Santos.  He can intentionally lie; belligerently and with disdain.  And is praised for doing so because he never once apologizes. Another characteristic of an extremist. Unfortunately, for many, a his soundbyte is sufficient to be informed.

Should we cast blame, then blame the many who (even here) post insults rather than contribute,  A fundamental difference between one who is responsible (moderates) verses another who advocate hate and evil (extremists).

No coincidence that the most easily manipulated (White Supremacists, KKK, and Nazis) join together to praise Trump.  Who is popular because he posts hate and tweets.  Without any regard to honesty, civility, or responsibility.  All characteristic of an extremist.  That define the problem.
 

 

4/18/2023 2:07 pm  #50


Re: The Gun Thread

Undertoad wrote:

since gun limit advocacy is the only solution offered, but is considered unworkable in any state, and gun rights state-by-state have only expanded; this only solution is proven to be ineffective even across over generations

so we should think of and promote alternate solutions

but we can't. we can't even think of alternate solutions. this is because narrative is sometimes a trap. it limits our thinking

and politics is a trap which limits us to BINARY thinking

and so we are stuck, and so people will die. get used to it
 

Enacting common sense gun laws is only a problem if we've given up on laws being made by democratically elected representatives of the people. People want gun control. 71% of Americans say gun laws should be stricter, including about half of Republicans, the vast majority of Democrats and a majority of those in gun-owning households. And it works. They have it everywhere else, and everywhere else doesn't have the problems we have.

It's just like many other issues-- the solution is obvious, it's what people want, but the government won't do it because they're hijacked by a minority of lunatics whom we constantly appease by shifting our collective positions further and further to the right. While what-about-ists are 'just asking questions'

I am interested, though, genuinely in what alternative solutions are being proposed by those who are free from the mind traps? Replace bullets with joke bullets that make a fart noise?


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