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11/22/2020 9:44 pm  #1


Kamala Harris and Sexism here

In the past, I have tolerated a lot of comments by mysogynist dwellars who are too  %&$#%ing &%#$% to see that their comments about women are just not ok, mostly because I enjoyed the diversity of the Cellar and those people were a part of that (distasteful though that aspect was to me), and because those comments were fairly obviously tongue-in-cheek.  But it seems those dwellars are taking the opportunity of a new regime to push the boundaries further and I am not OK with it. 

I am not OK with Kamala Harris being referred to as a whore and "cameltoe" -both terms generally levelled only at women- when the discussion is allegedly political so gender is irrelevant.  And before you level pussy-gate at me.... please fell free to share however what Kamala has allegedly or provenly done debases and dehumanizes men in the way that that publicly documented comment did women.

She's also not white and you guys are.  I wouldn't be surprised if you don't like that either, but you know you'd be banned for similar name-calling in that respect.  It's not OK.  race is irrelevant, gender is irrelevant.  End of.

Biden has been called a houseplant, Trump has been called orange.  Those "insults" don't even register on a hurtful scale, never mind as something so directed at one segment of the population.  It's not the same.  It relates purely to her gender and is irrelevant in the context and I would like it to stop.  Please.  Thank you.


The most difficult thing is the decision to act, the rest is merely tenacity  Amelia Earhart
 

11/23/2020 1:08 am  #2


Re: Kamala Harris and Sexism here

When I was living in a world of all couples it was tit for tat, the women making just as many and of equal quality zingers about men. In that sphere everyone was sort of equal during leisure time. Out in the working world of course it's a different story with wages, advancement, glass ceiling, yada, yada, yada. As ordinary working stiffs we are well aware of that situation but don't dwell on it because we are not in charge. I understand your plight and sympathize but the reality is if you get your way I could very well lose any chance of advancement or even my job. Not me specifically as I have no job, but you know what I mean. In the working world everyone tries to anticipate and check threats. 

The Quid Pro Joe and Cameltoe came from a staunch Republican after the election. I passed it along because it's a picture of what half the nation feels. I thought it was interesting and humorous, you obviously do not as you have a different agenda. Being politically correct is not my bag, not my guide. I'm only concerned with what I see as a serious problem that I can affect. Things like joking about people dying is more offensive to me than some politician's feelings.


 Freedom is just another word for nothin' left to lose.
 
 

11/23/2020 12:30 pm  #3


Re: Kamala Harris and Sexism here

Undertoad wrote:

She put over 1,500 people in jail for marijuana violations and then laughed about it when she was asked if she ever smoked. That makes her a cunt in my book

I wasn't sure what you were talking about, so I looked it up. And the first hit I saw was a CNN clip of a radio interview where she admitted to smoking pot and "inhaling" (a clear reference to Bill Clinton's claim decades ago that he didn't inhale) and she laughed.  My understanding of human nature was that her laughter wasn't genuine mirth. It wasn't a belly laugh. It was more of nervous social laughter in an awkward situation. She realized she was admitting to breaking the law, although not giving enough detail to be in any danger of being prosecuted.

She was not laughing about locking up 1500 people.  There was no discussion about the 1500 people in the clip.

In the clip, she was discussing how marijuana should be legalized. 

As a prosecutor, her job was to prosecute the laws on the books when the cops brought in people who broke those laws.  As a Senator, her job was to help write laws on the books, and she was expressing that she wanted to legalize pot.

 

11/23/2020 1:47 pm  #4


Re: Kamala Harris and Sexism here

None of your responses about me are relevant to the matter in hand.  If you have a problem with my behavior, please feel free to start an appropriate thread of your own.  As for the stalking claim, I would not be "mildly amused" if I had found the item that way.  It was an accidental happenstance through carelessness in my use of search tools and so I was amused.  But I soon decided that I did not feel good about posting that and deleted it, as you will see if you return to the thread.  You might want to watch that stalking behavior of your own there.  Your hard drive must be getting clogged up with all those screenshots you save for a rainy day

Now, having said my piece about sexism, I will once again leave you all to your self-perceived inadequacies and threatened existences.


The most difficult thing is the decision to act, the rest is merely tenacity  Amelia Earhart
     Thread Starter
 

11/23/2020 1:48 pm  #5


Re: Kamala Harris and Sexism here

how dare you *holds back tears* insult our *sobbing* dear leader Trump *sniff*
who has done so much to raise the level of cooperation and respect in politics!


 


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11/23/2020 4:19 pm  #6


Re: Kamala Harris and Sexism here

Regarding the thread topic..

Sexism against a woman in politics is all of these things:
1. 100% guaranteed to happen.. predictable, played-out, and pathetic
2. Consists of low-quality, substance-less "jokes" with no real premise other than-- "she's a WOMAN so [something about sex]" HAR HAR HAR
3. is about as funny as "I identify as an attack helicopter," and "I will run over protestors with my truck" HAR HAR HAR
4. Representative of the ad hominem attacks that have DOMINATED right-wing politics since Newt Gingrich wrote the playbook


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11/23/2020 6:32 pm  #7


Re: Kamala Harris and Sexism here

If you're adding an item to the list I assume you agree with points 1 through 4..
 


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11/23/2020 6:51 pm  #8


Re: Kamala Harris and Sexism here

har har. make an account, coward


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11/23/2020 6:59 pm  #9


Re: Kamala Harris and Sexism here

You guys (apart from Flint) just don’t get it about sexism do you? It is tedious and frequently threatening behaviour that all women are repeatedly and unjustifiably subjected to which adversely affects all aspects of our lives. I agree with Monster that I ignore a lot of the sexist post content here because I enjoy the diversity of the Cellar, and that includes bringing me into contact with people who regularly contribute to the sexist miasma in which women have to live, because these people have other redeeming features.
Do we want the Cellar to be a place where this behaviour is not called out? If it is OK to call out people for spreading false science, woo, and grapeseed oil, then surely it is also OK to call people out on their sexism?
I avoided the politics forum at .org partly because I feared it was full of name calling and personal insults, aimed at politicians and at other dwellars. In visiting the politics forum here, I find my fears justified. Why can’t a politics forum actually discuss, debate, disagree and find concensus on ideas, eh? Political ideas?
And to address you individually:

Henry wrote:

I’m a team player

No, Henry, you are merely using a euphemism. That does not make you less sexist, as is proven by this exchange:

Flint wrote:

Sexism against a woman in politics is all of these things:

Henry wrote:

5. fun

And UT, what’s this about? I don’t see the relevance of the following to Monster calling out sexism when she sees it here.

Undertoad wrote:

You wished Trump actually dead and now you need some sort of identity-specific niceness privilege on your new yas queen politician.

She put over 1,500 people in jail for marijuana violations and then laughed about it when she was asked if she ever smoked. That makes her a cunt in my book

O where is our fainting couch

Monster is not asking for “identity specific niceness privilege”. She is asking that Kamala be treated like a human being (well, like a man, actually. But wouldn’t it be nice if no-one was subjected to irrelevant sexist remarks). By all means object to Kamala’s policies and political behaviour and decisions, but personal insults do nothing to forward anyone’s arguments.
Is Monster really not entitled to object to arrant sexist remarks because she wished Trump dead? Does that mean she’s not allowed an opinion on anything?
Sexobon, the same question goes to you. Monster made an unwise post which she chose to retract by deleting it. Does that mean she’s not allowed an opinion on anything?
And xob,

xoxoxoBruce wrote:

Out in the working world of course it's a different story with wages, advancement, glass ceiling, yada, yada, yada.

You’re wide of the mark here, it’s “wages, advancement, glass ceiling, restricted educational choices, clothing choice in order to appear not to be inviting sex, but mustn’t look frumpy either, restrictions on where to spend your free time, informal curfews, implied life expectations, men dictating what you do with your womb, and so much more yada yada". Sexism affects every decision a woman makes in a way that very few men, if any, get.
As tw is so fond of saying, can we address the ideas here, please.
 

Last edited by Limey (11/23/2020 7:00 pm)


Living life on the edge.
 

11/23/2020 7:05 pm  #10


Re: Kamala Harris and Sexism here

Oh, and whatever happened to

Rules wrote:

Behave as you might at a real-life tavern. .... Be a thoughtful version of yourself. Make an effort to leave it a better place than when you arrived and we all win.


Living life on the edge.
 

11/23/2020 7:20 pm  #11


Re: Kamala Harris and Sexism here

Women suffer tangible impact to their quality of life due to sexism, misogyny, and the persistent condition of, for example, worrying about being raped and murdered while jogging. This is just "how it is" and you can't even make a Gillette commercial about it without society losing it's mind.

Here's how it breaks down: if you make sexist jokes, or laugh at them, OR don't speak out against them-- you are giving the ol' "wink and nod" to all the other stuff. Period. If this upsets you then please do some self examination.

 


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11/23/2020 7:36 pm  #12


Re: Kamala Harris and Sexism here

you're different
being a lost cause and all


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11/24/2020 1:31 am  #13


Re: Kamala Harris and Sexism here

Limey wrote:

Monster is not asking for “identity specific niceness privilege”. She is asking that Kamala be treated like a human being (well, like a man, actually.

Did you miss the things the men politicians were/are called? But Harris deserve special treatment because when she's treated the same as the men it's sexist?

Is Monster really not entitled to object to arrant sexist remarks because she wished Trump dead? Does that mean she’s not allowed an opinion on anything?

Sure she can while keeping in mind what she posts, like everyone else, is an opinion.

And xob,

xoxoxoBruce wrote:

Out in the working world of course it's a different story with wages, advancement, glass ceiling, yada, yada, yada.

You’re wide of the mark here, it’s “wages, advancement, glass ceiling, restricted educational choices, clothing choice in order to appear not to be inviting sex, but mustn’t look frumpy either, restrictions on where to spend your free time, informal curfews, implied life expectations, men dictating what you do with your womb, and so much more yada yada". Sexism affects every decision a woman makes in a way that very few men, if any, get.
As tw is so fond of saying, can we address the ideas here, please. 

OK, I chose yada, yada, yada after covering the obvious employments points, the things the women I worked with bitched about, to save verbage as I'm a 1½ finger typer.
Now the other things you mentioned, I can see that happening but my experience working has been the women were shown favoritism. Now that's in a manufacturing environment where they amounted to maybe 5% tops which is very removed from the white collar world. 
I remember when my wife worked in the Boston office of an insurance company. Men smoked at their desk, women couldn't smoke, not just on the four floors the company occupied, but in the building or sidewalk around it. Women had to wear nylons, and it had only been three years since they had been required to wear hats to work. I was under the impression that had all gone away.
Maybe I'm missing some of what your radar picks up as sexist, but don't assume everything you find offensive is sexist.
 


 Freedom is just another word for nothin' left to lose.
 
 

11/24/2020 5:23 am  #14


Re: Kamala Harris and Sexism here

It's good to have a discussion on this.
I can only reference the insults in this thread, because I do not follow US political coverage as a rule.
Being called "orange" and a "houseplant" is in no way equivalent to being called "whore" and "cameltoe". Even if the male politicians were called "gigolo" and, what, "package"???? these would not be equivalent because of the cultural baggage behind the idea that whores are bad, while gigolos are just being smart earning money with their bodies.
FWIW I agree that Monster was wrong to assume the racist stance of the sexist guys posting this material.
Bruce, I think you are missing some of what my "radar picks up as sexist". That's OK, we grew up in different countries in different times. I still like you though.
I doubt I've covered all the points, but those are the main ones.
Have a beer.


Living life on the edge.
 

11/24/2020 11:46 am  #15


Re: Kamala Harris and Sexism here

UT, you are still missing the sexism element.
Insults are fine, especially in a social setting such as you describe. The overwhelming weight of sexist baggage that goes along with "whore" and "cameltoe" is the problem here. Call Kamala by some other insult without those sexist connotations and I'll shut right up.


Living life on the edge.
 

11/24/2020 1:15 pm  #16


Re: Kamala Harris and Sexism here

Grandfather wrote:

Flint wrote:

you're different
being a lost cause and all

yeah, I'm goin' to hell

Henry
 

I appreciate your honesty. It's refreshing to see people state their true intentions without sugar-coating it in fancy language to make it seem 'morally superior'


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11/24/2020 1:49 pm  #17


Re: Kamala Harris and Sexism here

I know that Henry and Sexobon are intelligent people. I know that they understand that one word does not have just one meaning in every context, language is not nearly as simplistic as that and I am heartily glad because that means my job as a translator is unlikely to disappear anytime soon, no matter how fast machine translation is developing.
"whore" on its own, when applied to a woman has a different set of connotations than it does when applied to a man. Especially when it is qualified by the word "attention" as in "attention whore".
I'd grant that the insult "political whore" can be applied to both men and women, because the context, with the added qualifier of "political", gives the word "whore" a different meaning.
"Cocksucker" has a different set of connotations when applied to a woman that it does when applied to a man, as is proven by Henry's remark

Henry wrote:

and it applies cuz she is one

. Henry clearly does not mean it in the gender-neutral, joshing way that UT referred to earlier.
I am most certainly not after censoring anyone's language (unless boardhost begins to object and threatens to deprive us of our forum). I want you guys to look at what you say and think about the connotations.
You'd be happy to be called a cocksucker in a tavern, as a greeting by a friend. Would you be happy for your daughter or wife or girlfriend or mother to be called a "cocksucker, and it applies, cuz she is one". I hope this helps you to see the difference.


Living life on the edge.
 

11/24/2020 3:25 pm  #18


Re: Kamala Harris and Sexism here

I was hoping we might be able to have a serious political discussion here, but unfortunately not. Henry has clearly demonstrated his intention to use sexist insults against Kamala:

Henry wrote:

it's all about me insultin' the whore, er, the hoe, er, the cocksucker

Henry wrote:

that the female of the pair actually does suck cock

And Sexobon is claiming that the connotations, of which everyone is aware, can be simply ignored if the person using the term "isn't stereotyping". That's like the sneaky cross-questioning lawyer asking questions which the judge asks to be struck from the record. Allegedly not intended stereotyping still leaves its mark in peoples' minds, and if that were not the intention, another insult would have been chosen.
So what we have is two men gleefully throwing sexist insults at a successful woman.
And please do not get me started on the misuse of the word "commie"!
 


Living life on the edge.
 

11/24/2020 3:28 pm  #19


Re: Kamala Harris and Sexism here

oh for jfc sake

It's different to be a woman, because society is geared differently towards the genders.
So the lived experience of being a woman comes with that, it's built in.

If you are not a woman you don’t experience this, so these are not important issues specifically to you, because it does not apply to you personally.

Nevertheless the conditions do exist, and if you’re a woman you are attuned to being aware of that.
 
So, language and terms that refer to society’s treatment of women refers to a real thing that, if you’re not a woman, you’re not compelled to think about and be aware of. But when a woman hears that language it is a reminder of something she already knows.
 
This is all common sense. The only part I can’t wrap my head around is that apparently, not all people in society make an earnest attempt to think about how people who are different than themself are affected differently by things—things that might not be a big deal to YOU, but do we really want to live in a society where people only care about themselves, and don't care AT ALL about the experiences of anyone OTHER than themselves..??

I mean, obvioulsy this is rhetorical. That IS the world we live in.

Some people choose to say, "this isn't good enough, we can try harder and do better"



 

Last edited by Flint (11/24/2020 3:35 pm)


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11/24/2020 3:52 pm  #20


Re: Kamala Harris and Sexism here

Henry, this doesn't apply to you. I know you don't care about anybody other than yourself, and you're proud to say so.

...


I'll bite. what's the definition of 'commie' ?

Last edited by Flint (11/24/2020 3:53 pm)


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11/24/2020 4:13 pm  #21


Re: Kamala Harris and Sexism here

yes but who are you?

Henry? the other guy? somebody else?

make a frickin account. it's confusing


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11/24/2020 4:21 pm  #22


Re: Kamala Harris and Sexism here

Grandfather wrote:

Grandfather wrote:

... You can demonstrate this for yourself by considering a female saying that another female is an attention whore. Is that seen as being just as bad as a male saying a female is an attention whore? ...

Limey wrote:

... That's like the sneaky cross-questioning lawyer asking questions which the judge asks to be struck from the record. ...

As tw would say, you didn't answer the question.

Limey wrote:

... So what we have is two men gleefully throwing sexist insults at a successful woman. ...

Please show me where I've "gleefully" (or otherwise) thrown sexist insults at a successful woman where it wasn't in italics for demonstration purposes in the discussion; or, qualified along the lines of:

Limey wrote:

... I'd grant that the insult "political whore" can be applied to both men and women, because the context, with the added qualifier of "political", gives the word "whore" a different meaning. ...

Mr O'Bon (I guess), I grant I should have been clearer when I said "I'd grant that the insult "political whore" can be applied to both men and women, because the context, with the added qualifier of "political", gives the word "whore" a different meaning." I should have said: "I'd grant that the insult "political whore" can be applied to both men and women, by both men and women, because the context, with the added qualifier of "political", gives the word "whore" a different meaning."
My quoted text in your post is not in reply to the Grandfather (which one?) quote directly above, so there's a bit of unnecessary sophistry.
And weeding out which grandfather posts have been signed (or just written and not signed) by O'Bon is too tedious. If only you had your own account, it would be easier.
(Edit for speeling)

Last edited by Limey (11/24/2020 4:22 pm)


Living life on the edge.
 

11/24/2020 4:44 pm  #23


Re: Kamala Harris and Sexism here

just don't be a dick
& think about others

that's all


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11/24/2020 4:45 pm  #24


Re: Kamala Harris and Sexism here

OR

ppl will say, "hey, you're being a dick"


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11/24/2020 5:06 pm  #25


Re: Kamala Harris and Sexism here

you already know what the difference is

in your heart, mind, and soul, and with every fiber of your being, you have a deep, fundamental understanding of the difference between being a man and being a woman is

nobody can "PoLiCe" you into basing your actions on that knowledge which you 100% already have

"you must do what you feel is right"
 


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