Never forget, for one moment, why all this exists.  Both sides are dominated by a minority of extremists.  Extremists are always the bane of any civil society.  As one extremist in the Cellar said, he wanted to "fuck things up."

It can take a year or so to create violence and wars.  It takes decades to create peace.  Since that only starts when moderates on both sides are in control.  It takes a long time to build trust and cooperation.

Easy is to see why Hamas so easily recruits (brainwashes) their recruits into hate and extremism.  What Israel has done to the Gaza strip only feeds into that hate.  Makes recruiting to the 'dark side' easiest.

Lukid is Israel's political party of hate.  Openly an now increasingly stealing Palestinians land with outright contempt for it owners.  These extremists even say Palestinians can go back to where they belong.  Such rhetoric works on extremists.

What will it take to force moderates on both side to take control?  Not enough people have died on both sides.  Sadly, that is the reality of all wars.  WWII being the ideal example.  Even after bombing Hiroshima, Japanese extremists still wanted to fight on.  How extremists were Germans?  One German lady said in a bombed out city to a British soldier, "If only you had surrendered, then all this would not happen."

Wanted by extremists were another million (on all sides) to die.

Fortunately a moderate (the Emperor) brought sanity back to Japan.

Who in Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank is moderate enough to end all this?  Nobody comes to mind.  Extremists in Israel now want to disassemble democracy.  How is that any different from what happened in 1933 Germany?  Extremists dominate all sides (at the expense of all moderates).

As sad as all this is, it is still not enough deaths and destruction to empower the moderates.  All this only entrenches extremists on both sides.

One husband talks of his wife.  Who would even take Palestinians to Israeli hospitals for treatment.  Being a moderate, the shame is, she was also murdered a few days ago by an extremist.
 

Last edited by tw (10/10/2023 2:05 pm)

Chart: The Human Cost Of The Israeli-Palestinian Conflict | Statista

toranokaze wrote:

An attack of this magnitude requires retaliation 

Against who?  Since Hamas extremists did this, then all innocent and moderate civilians should be killed?

That is the conundrum that non-extremist miliary officers in Israel face.  Only the Curtis LeMay types say "Kill them all.  God will know his own."

Statistics provided by Diaphone Jim demonstrate that strategy has accomplished nothing.
 

Last edited by tw (10/11/2023 9:52 am)

glatt wrote:

 Iran is the real enemy behind this.

Actual enemy is clearly defined by the Rolling Stones in Sympathy for the Devil.

Iran only provides material so that the enemy can live on.  As do other nations. Citing only Iran simply encourages that devil.
 

this one gets people wound up real bad

Flint wrote:

this one gets people wound up real bad

Why would anyone get wound up?  It just another stupid war because moderates let extremists take charge.  So innocent moderates must suffer.  As always happens when extremist rhetoric is justified.  So moderates are getting what they deserve. Ho-hum.
 

2+ million Palestinians living in a 25 mile long by 3 to 7 mile wide POW camp, cut off from the world, dependent on their captors for much of their water, food, work permits, and electric power, for 16 years, might breed a little resentment.

tw wrote:

toranokaze wrote:

An attack of this magnitude requires retaliation 

Against who?  Since Hamas extremists did this, then all innocent and moderate civilians should be killed?

That is the conundrum that non-extremist miliary officers in Israel face.  Only the Curtis LeMay types say "Kill them all.  God will know his own."

Statistics provided by Diaphone Jim demonstrate that strategy has accomplished nothing.
 

Hamas is the elected government, the IDF gave warning for the civilians to leave. Hamas wanted a war and now they have one. 

Then one discovers why.  People in Gaza have been all put put into a prison for the past 20 years.  Without even a trial.  To be ordered, by extremist Israelis, what they can and cannot do.  Meaning that even more should be Hamas supporters.  Since only Hamas demonstrate any effort to free these people.

Even the PLO no longer has credibility with these people.  Since the PLO all but let's Israelis even steal the West Bank.  Claiming that land was given to them by god.

All this making it extremely different for moderates - the only people who can resolve this - to resolve anything.

So it comes down to this.  Since moderates cannot negotiate a solution, then Gaza must be flattened.  Just like Tokyo and Berlin in WWII.  With maybe up to one half million people on both sides murdered.  I use the word murder because all this could have been averted had extremist been mocked and demeaned - on both sides.

Why would Iran also support Hamas?  Moderates in Iran would not.  But they were driven from power when Trump successfully undermined them.  Forcing Iranians to vote extremists back into power.  Note how extremist empower the extremists of their enemies.  Not just here.  American extremist have done same with its adversaries.  Never forget the 'axis of evil' declared by George Jr.

A solution, solved by moderates, is extremely difficult.  Made worse by the many who will not admit extremists always have  Sympthay for the Devil.  Only want to "fuck things up".  An exact quote from an extremist.

And so the only solution is a half million people massacred.

Appreciate the Israeli's problem.  Conventional warfare means an attacker must outnumber the defenders three to one.  But in urban environments, that numbers is more like five to one.  As Fallujah demonstrated.  And the one million casualties predicted for an invasion of Japan.  It must be that devastating.  Because extremists are now in control and entrenched on both sides.  Making it almost impossible to remain a moderate.

 

So that justifies the mass rape of civilians at a music festival, beheading babes, dragging women to death?
 That open air prison is propaganda, anyone can integrate in  Israelis society there are many Arab Israelites or they could emigrate to another country, or they could just stop the waves of terrorism then improve their conditions. 

This is just another battle in a war that has been ongoing for 30 years.  Anyone concerned about this next battle is being emotional.  Hyping hearsay that baby's were beheaded is, if logical, no different than babies shot by a gun or killed by jet fighters.  That type of murder has also been routine by Israelis in Gaza for almost 20 years.  This is just another little battle in a many decades war.  Where both sides have been evil.  Where moderates still cannot create a solution.

One Israeli Prime Minister discussed his early years in Tel Aviv.  He would light oil barrels and send them rolling down hills into Palestinian neighborhoods.  Back when Palestinians still lived throughout Tel Aviv.  That is a good person?  This sort  of thing has been constant there since the 1950s.  Likud constantly promoted such actions.

Taking sides exposes extremist thinking.  You should be asking how Israelis would wipe out Hamas without mass civilian killings.  A complication also demonstrated in WWII, VietNam, and Fallujah.  It usually means wiping out the civilian population as well. "We had to burn the village to save it."

Not discussed is what everyone should be discussing.  The Israeli strategy.  Apparently they intend to wipe out the northern half of the Gaza strip.  Pushing 2 million civilians to the Egyptian border.  Why?

To drive Palestinians back from where they claim (what evil Israeli extremists believe)?  Or is that where most Hamas facilities exist?

I don't care if 20 or 2 million die.  This war must be resolved somehow.  Either by minimal deaths promoted by moderates.  Or massacres promoted by extremists. Either may be necessary to finally end it.  Honest (logical) people do not care how many ide.  They care, first, about resolving it.  Human life there now has minimal value - on both sides.  Only a solution has relevance.  Welcome to what this war is all about.

I take no sides because I deal in facts.  And have contempt for conclusions based only in emotions.  I forgot the number.  But something like 10 Palestinians die for every Israeli.  And Israeli extremist continue to steal Palestinian land.  Moderates cannot resolve this. Since many still do not get it.  Sympahty for the Devil  exists here.  Just  one of hundreds of battles - all part of the same war - that has been ongoing since the 50s.

One fact that virtually all moderate nations agree.  Hamas is a terrorist organization.  So different from other Arab organizations as to have no relationship to the PLO, Hezbollah, or Islam.

Last edited by tw (10/13/2023 6:17 pm)

toranokaze wrote:

Hamas is the elected government, the IDF gave warning for the civilians to leave. Hamas wanted a war and now they have one. 

They are elected the same way Putin is; ie, they won one election decades ago, and then eliminated the competition.