The Cellar » The Three Axis of US Politics

xoxoxoBruce · 11/19/2023 3:31 am

Tie 3 horses to a human and send them in different directions you know what happens to the human.
Tie 3 ideologies to a democracy and you can picture what will happen.

I don't think all women, minorities, and poor are oppressed so being one of those is not sufficient to claim it.
Certainly some are and some in other categories too. It should be stopped in all cases but not from blanket
claims because that's a waste of resources and pissses off a lot of folks.

I get it change is scary and confusing but your values and your religion doesn't work for everyone.
Remember your ideas gave us a very uncivil war. Plus somehow one of the primary rules back in the day,
you seem to have forgotten, was mind your own damn business.

Let people make their own decision? I decide to run my sewer pie into the public water supply. I decide to
drive 100 mph up main street. I decide to let my dog shit anywhere he wants, and same for the cow or horse.
Is that the decisions you claim the right to? There are a reason for rules, and sometimes the rules get stupid
because it's the stalwarts that get involved, get elected, and want to tell everyone what to do.
But you're too busy telling everyone about your rights to bother getting involved with the process.

Careful don't trip over the soapbox when you rush out to your snit for the trip home.

Last edited by xoxoxoBruce (11/19/2023 3:31 am)

Diaphone Jim · 11/20/2023 12:34 pm

"Careful don't trip over the soapbox when you rush out to your snit for the trip home."
"Driving off in a Snit" was the caption of a cartoon in Playboy thirty or forty years ago. It was part of a very clever series that has resisted my searching for years.
The Snit was car that looked like one might.
I suspect copyright arguments caused the trouble.

Flint · 11/20/2023 1:43 pm

Coercion/Liberty and Oppressor/Oppressed are the same axis.

The descriptions of these "two different" axes are political tropes. Progressives don't see oppressor/oppressed as relating specifically to "wOmEn, MiNoRiTiEs and the pOoR" but the enslavement of humans under a predatory capitalist system. A libertarian who truly cares about suppression of individual liberties would care about this.

This chart is designed, with all the subtlety of a safe falling on your head, to draw you to the conclusion that "Liberty and Civilization" (the good things) are opposed to "Barbarism and Coercion" (the bad things) --with the extraneous component that loony liberals only care about minority rights and feminism (the unimportant things).

...

Quick google search reveals that this book was written by a libertarian. Transparent, spotted immediately. These guys are not smart.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnold_Kling
He identifies as a libertarian.[2]
Kling, Arnold (August 31, 2020). "Why I lean libertarian". askblog. Retrieved January 7, 2021.

"Markets tend to reward prosocial behavior. Not all markets at all times, but most markets at most times.

Governments tend to reward predatory behavior. Not all governments at all times, but often enough that we should take this into account when we advocate for government to “do something.” Government power is a prize for which elites will compete"

ƒucking jacka$$es think the BiG gOvErNmEnT/"eLiTeS" boogeyman will provide cover for the unfettered, unscrupulous business machine that chews up humans and sh!ts out money

THEY ARE THE ELITES. it's the dumbest thing that anyone has ever fallen for

Last edited by Flint (11/20/2023 2:28 pm)

tw · 11/20/2023 4:38 pm

Nobody (should) cares about the person. What only matters are facts as presented.

An interesting simplification of how to categorize people's biases.

Only extremists attack the person - who is irrelevant to the topic. Do so in the evil manner that is also called Trump and Mussolini. Those facts should live on their own. All criticism, if honest, only discusses what makes that hypothesis invalid. Only then do posts contribute something useful.

The proposed graph is only three dimensional. A simplified version of what is really a many more dimensional world. But something simplified to promote an honest discussion - without cheapshot extremist rheotoric.

Last edited by tw (11/20/2023 4:41 pm)

Flint · 11/20/2023 5:02 pm

The chart itself if propaganda which I correctly identified. It presents three false axes designed to paint libertarianism/conservatism in a positive light and leftism as irrelevant.

Only AFTER correctly identifying that the chart is libertarian propaganda I googled the book/author, to verify his bias. It was obvious from the flimsy construction of his bad-faith chart.

There's no conceivable logical justification for creating separate axes for Coercion/Liberty and Oppressor/Oppressed except to desceptively currate the contents of these categories into the service of a bad-faith argument. Coercion/Liberty and Oppressor/Oppressed are the same thing. Only libertarian propoganda has to define separate axes-- in order to disengage "oppression" from "liberty" and define a new goal-- "freedom from taxes which support government programs which benefit poor minorities who don't have Western values" or, "red+ and blue+ are the goal, green- is collateral damage" --but in reality, green+ and blue+ are the SAME THING, if one really cares about freedom/liberty/oppression.

Progressives are PRO-civilization and PRO-liberty. Where does this chart have Progressives? Anti-oPpReSsiOn. ... Anti-oppression IS pro-liberty. They're the same thing. Libertarians want to own the blue axis. They don't. This chart sends progressives off to the twilight zone, fixated on a "less important" issue which is shown (with the subtlety of a bull in a china cabinet) to be in opposition to the "more important" goals. This is flimsy chicanery aimed at people who aren't paying close attention. In layman's terms, horse sh!t.

Last edited by Flint (11/20/2023 7:48 pm)

xoxoxoBruce · 11/21/2023 5:57 am

If you remember our Liberal former member was all about his god given rights and wanted to elect people to go to washington to "fuck things up". I'm sure he felt being charged for the sewer pipe going by his house was oppression but didn't use those words.

The Conservatives are constantly whining about how they are being oppressed, and their children forced to mingle with other people of different color, religion, and roots.

It's funny the people who are being seriously oppressed don't say much about it. They may bitch about not getting a break like everyone does at one time or other but usually don't complain about being oppressed individually. Maybe they've seen so much of it in their community/social circle they expect it.

I think those 3 axis are valid. certainly not the whole story, that's way more nuanced, but a good start.

griff · 11/21/2023 7:35 am

Cass Sunstein - Liberals believe in six things: freedom, human rights, pluralism, security, the rule of law and democracy. They believe not only in democracy, understood to require accountability to the people, but also in deliberative democracy, an approach that combines a commitment to reason giving in the public sphere with the commitment to accountability.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/20/opinion/cass-sunstein-why-liberal.html

Cass will offend populists on the left and the right. Commitment to deliberative democracy (compromise) is critical to avoiding authoritarianism. It is frustrating especially when there is a commitment to falsehoods, but this country will not be governable otherwise. I came upon some proper word-smithing around the Israeli - Palestinian conflict, Parochial Empathy. We need to be more empathetic to the other in this country as well.

Last edited by griff (11/21/2023 7:50 am)

tw · 11/21/2023 10:42 am

Flint wrote:
The chart itself if propaganda ...
There's no conceivable logical justification for creating separate axes for Coercion/Liberty and Oppressor/Oppressed except to desceptively currate the contents of these categories into the service of a bad-faith argument.

Coercion/Liberty and Oppressor/Oppressed are ideal antonyms. Why criticize what are best put at two ends of a graph? Only reason provided is your bias. You do not like the man due to your own (irrelevant) biases. Then criticize what are best antonyms at two ends of a graph.

Bury extremist biases that have no relevance here. (Unless you also want to fuck things up. Then your posts have no relevance to reality.) Please only discuss the topic. xoxoxoBruce and Griff demonstrate how that is done.

Flint · 11/21/2023 2:34 pm

1) I read and understood the chart as biased towards libertarian talking points. 2) I googled the author and confirmed they are a libertarian. Hypothesis, investigation, and conclusion. I'm sorry you don't like it.

I'll explain this one more time, please read carefully: An oppressor coerces you and takes away your liberty so that you become oppressed. Coercion/Liberty and Oppressor/Oppressed are the same thing. There is no logical purpose for putting these on two separate axes. Please confirm you have read and understood.

Last edited by Flint (11/21/2023 2:34 pm)

glatt · 11/21/2023 5:05 pm

Makes sense to me. I know your post wasn't directed at me, but I appreciate the dumbing down. I was kind of skimming over the long posts above and not following. I think tw is in the same boat.

tw · 11/21/2023 5:08 pm

Flint wrote:
1) I read and understood the chart as biased towards libertarian talking points. 2) I googled the author and confirmed they are a libertarian.

And but again, you refuse to admit what is only relevant. The topic. Which is always different from an author. If the topic had errors, then posted are details that define those errors. Nothing more.

Since you will not read (acknowledge) what was written, then I have to address the problem- your reading abilities. Please stop trying to bait me with extremists rhetoric.

No author is relevant. Only an extremist (let or right) would cite a person rather than the topic.

Coercion/Liberty and Oppressor/Oppressed are ideal antonyms. Since that fact blows your entire previous post out of the water, then you ignore it?

Again citing what was never relevant - the author. As far as I am concerned, you could be Hitler. Does not matter. I am addressing the topic - and what you keep ignoring. As if the author was Karl Marx. Those two people also are irrelevant to the topic. But if you want to keep posting irrelevance, then so will I.

Also irrelevant was who xoxoxoBruce and Griff are. Only relevant were facts demonstrated in their posts. Facts without emotions.

tw · 11/21/2023 5:09 pm

glatt wrote:
I think tw is in the same boat.

I hope it was not called Titanic. Does that mean a large topic?

I do recall someone saying we need a bigger boat. Are we headed for shark infested waters?

Last edited by tw (11/21/2023 5:10 pm)

Flint · 11/21/2023 5:39 pm

tw wrote:
And but again, you refuse to admit what is only relevant. The topic.

Nope. The topic is the chart. The chart is libertarian propaganda. I identified this immediately by simply reading it.

The three axes presented are carefully designed to lead the reader to erroneous conclusions. Each group identified in the text is described with a false and misleading description. If the author has you debating about the three groups/axes, he has successfully slipped the real intent past your attention. The intent is to mischaracterize the three groups, in a plausible-seeming way. If you didn't notice this, you have the opportunity to read it again and tell me whether you disagree. This is the topic. Does the chart accurately and honestly describe political groups and their goals/beliefs.

Flint · 11/21/2023 5:43 pm

Coercion/Liberty and Oppressor/Oppressed are ideal antonyms.

Yes, of course. Each SET is a SET of antonyms. And both SETS describe the same relation of the components. You've got to be capable of comprehending this. It's blindingly obvious.

Anon · 11/21/2023 8:03 pm

This is a hard nut to crack; but, ...

"Coercion/Liberty" and "Oppressor/Oppressed" are ideal antonyms if taken separately. When taken together they contrast the concepts of negative liberty and positive liberty:

As written, these labels appear to be a difference without a distinction. Rewritten to better draw a distinction they could be:

"Coercion/Negative Liberty" and "Oppression/Positive Liberty" in which the difference between coercion and oppression is that coercion is actual or threatened force for the purpose of compelling action by another person; the act of coercing while oppression is the exercise of authority or power in a burdensome, cruel, or unjust manner.

In broad terms, negative liberty means freedom from- from interference, coercion, or restraint-while positive liberty means freedom to, or self-determination-freedom to act or to be as one wills.

The graphic seems OK, not great; but, OK. The narrative seems to be corrupted with the assigned axis for Progressives and Libertarians being bass-ackwards for their descriptions. It must be some new wave train of thought or something that doesn't give credence to pre-existing meanings or concepts.

It's not just a matter of semantics. These terms have a history of use, evolution and variations which are beyond the scope of this thread. I've just touched on the gist of it. Indulge yourselves in a reference (Wikipedia has separate articles on Negative Liberty and Positive Liberty as well):

https://scholarship.kentlaw.iit.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1306&context=fac_schol

Flint · 11/21/2023 8:29 pm

Oppressor Coerces the Oppressed, who loses their Liberty.
Oppressor/Coercion is the antagonist and Oppressed/Liberty is the protagonist.

There's not enough difference between these to necessitate a separate axis, in a world where everyone/everything is defined on a total of three axes.

What purpose, then, in separating them? Because the intent is to characterize groups of people and characterize the justification of their beliefs. There is a point of view stated in the characterizations chosen in the construction of the chart. It's not neutral, and it wasn't designed to be neutral. The "corrupted" characterization isn't accidental.

Last edited by Flint (11/21/2023 8:32 pm)

Anon · 11/22/2023 6:58 am

It doesn’t purport to establish “a world where everyone/everything is defined on a total of three axes.” It’s just an attempt at characterizing contextual bases for political discussion in Western countries which are at times reduced to splitting hairs.

tw · 11/22/2023 10:32 am

Flint wrote:
Nope. The topic is the chart. The chart is libertarian propaganda. I identified this immediately by simply reading it.

Only disinformation is your reasoning ... that does not even discuss the chart. And now lies. You claim to be discussing the chart. By only demeaning its author.

Worse, hate of honesty: not even cite facts that say he is a libertarian. Not one fact was posted to justify that irrelevant claim. A claim that is irrelevance to people not empowered by hate.

You simply prove the enemies of libertarians are the enemy of honesty and logic. Therefore the enemy of all moderate Americans. Who simple request that you discuss the chart. Disparaging its author says nothing honest or useful.

That 'rumored to be' libertarian put forth a hypothesis. All I read from Flint is hate. Without even one fact that justifies Trump style hate.

... carefully designed to lead the reader to erroneous conclusions.

Only erroneous conclusion I read is "libertarian bad; Flint good". A conclusion not even carefully designed.

Flint · 11/22/2023 2:09 pm

if three is good, one is better. The ONE axis of politics, two versions: Self <--> Others, and Chaos <--> Order

and the results are in!

Barbarism and Liberty = Chaos/Self
Civilization and Coercion = Order/Others
the Oppressor= Order/Self
the Oppressed = Chaos/Others

So, Barbarism/Liberty needs an Oppressor to impose Order and Civilization/Coercion must deal with the Chaos of Others.

...

tl;dr -- this is how the bias is "baked in" to the chart. The chart sets conditions of the discussion, it is not a neutral device.

Last edited by Flint (11/22/2023 2:14 pm)