The Cellar » Technofeudalism

griff · 3/26/2024 6:42 am

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2024/04/01/has-capitalism-been-replaced-by-technofeudalism?utm_source=pocket-newtab-en-us

Has Capitalism Been Replaced by “Technofeudalism”?

Varoufakis just published his seventeenth book, called “Technofeudalism.” Capitalism, he argues, has been replaced by a new economic system that’s more dangerous than anything Marx could have conjured. The big tech companies—Meta, Amazon, Apple, Alphabet—control our attention and mediate our transactions, he says, turning humans into digital serfs incessantly posting, scrolling, and buying on their platforms. Rather than chasing profits that derive from labor, the tech overlords, whom he calls “cloudalists,” extract “rents.”

https://www.theatlantic.com/podcasts/archive/2024/03/smartphone-anxious-generation-mental-health/677817/

The Smartphone Kids Are Not All Right

Haidt convincingly uses data to argue that a sharp uptick in depression, anxiety, loneliness, and suicide among young people is directly tied to the wide distribution of smartphones. He points to surveys that have been asking teenagers for decades questions about mental health, such as: “Life often seems meaningless” or “A lot of times I feel lonely.” Survey results remained pretty consistent, and some numbers were even improving, before they took a sharp, negative turn somewhere between 2010 and 2015.

Every core evaluation I write for little people has suggestions about limiting screen time.We are tool users but as monkeys we need to know our own limits and needs. A one-time poster / founder of this place would likely argue the opposite that we need to embrace it all as we soar into a plastic-fantastic future. He would say (since he's not saying) in a Randian way that human creativity is being unleashed by the tech. I would say that the attention economy is threatening to derail broader human progress. The few are accumulating as never before putting enormous resources in the hands of, frankly, broken people. If we want a Star Trek Next Generation future we're going to have to figure out how to democratize technology and limit the accumulation of power.

Last edited by griff (3/26/2024 6:44 am)

Flint · 3/26/2024 3:24 pm

Color me unimpressed by "[some kind of new] technology is bad" ..since this has been said about everything new information distribution system, like newspapers.

Or, even WRITING itself, as Socrates said, Plato said, Thamus told Thoth:

For this invention will produce forgetfulness in the minds of those who learn to use it, because they will not practice their memory. Their trust in writing, produced by external characters which are no part of themselves, will discourage the use of their own memory within them. You have invented an elixir not of memory, but of reminding; and you offer your pupils the appearance of wisdom, not true wisdom, for they will read many things without instruction and will, therefore, seem to know many things, when they are for the most part ignorant and hard to get along with since they are not wise, but only appear wise.

I don't know how we can separate "distribution of smartphones" from "distribution of information" ..it seems like information is what causes depression/anxiety.

And what was supposed to have happened between 2010 and 2015? There weren't smartphones at all in 2010, and then everybody had one in 2015? Are they suggesting that nobody used the internet before then, it is just the phones that are bad-- so if we all went back to using computers, the depression crisis would vanish.?? Sitting in a basement on a computer is better than using a phone on a park bench?

Last edited by Flint (3/26/2024 3:25 pm)

griff · 3/27/2024 6:29 am

I look at early childhood use of smartphones as a misuse of technology, it's driving the roto-tiller to the grocery store. Children (generally) are wired for learning through play and making human connections. Their brains are very plastic so almost any adult who spends enough play-time at their level will connect and assist communication. A great use case for smartphones is when those connections have difficulty being made and language needs a boost, but you have to put strong filters on that device.

As a kid who escaped into books instead of connecting with my classmates, I kinda see both sides. The medium ensures that a higher percentage of kids are checked out, but some kids are better connected to friends and parents. We're expecting kids to make choices about use case which they are not capable of handling. The bullying that went on in school in the '70s early '80s stopped dead when the school bus door closed. Today's kids don't get that break.

Here is Haidt's explanation in the interview.Haidt: The iPhone comes out in 2007, but it’s just amazing in that it’s a digital Swiss Army knife, and there were no apps other than the ones that came with it. And then the next year we get the app store, and then we get notifications.So it’s not until 2010–2011 that you have this thing in your pocket, which is not a digital Swiss Army knife that you pull out when you need something. It is now a portal that millions—millions—of companies now can use to get to you, as a child. Without your parents’ permission or knowledge, they can get to you. They can send you notifications. They can try to get you to stop your homework and: Come—look at what someone just said about you.

So it’s in the 2010s that the phone becomes a master rather than a servant. 2010 is also when Instagram is available for public use. 2010 is also when the front-facing camera is put on. Also, high-speed internet: By 2012–2013, most people do have high-speed internet. So the point is: Between 2010—when phones weren’t toxic, people weren’t on Instagram, most people didn’t have high-speed data—2010 things were fine. By 2015, everything’s different.

Flint · 3/27/2024 6:48 pm

Ah, thanks for the clarification.

I forgot what cloud I was going to yell at, anyway..

::ahem:: are we sure kids aren't depressed because we know for 100% certainty that the planet is currently transforming into an unlivable hellscape.. aannd we know for 100% certainty that we're never going to do anything about it, because like 10 guys own everything, including all of politics?

I mean, isn't it incidental that phones are the device that delivers this information to us? And for "the other half" that doesn't believe this, they're equally concerned, "because of phones," that baby-eating lizard people are attacking the border with Jewish space lasers?

I mean, is it the phones? Really? The worst part of all this is that we're learning about it on phones? Would it all be okay if we were still watching TV, and they just didn't tell us about it? And would that be "better" .?

Anon · 3/27/2024 8:35 pm

WAIT FOR IT!

If smartphones make kids depressed, then pencils misspell words, cars drive drunk, and spoons make people fat.

(someone had to do it)

fargon · 3/27/2024 8:41 pm

Anon wrote:
WAIT FOR IT!

If smartphones make kids depressed, then pencils misspell words, cars drive drunk, and spoons make people fat.

(someone had to do it)

Rite on.

xoxoxoBruce · 3/27/2024 11:21 pm

There have always been schoolyard bullies, but you had sometimes support and always sympathy of your fellow victims and even the neutrals (the ones too big/tough to be bullied).
But on the phones/internet getting attacked/bullied by trolls you're on your own.
You don't know why so you wonder if it's you that's a problem.
You have no support, no sympathy, because the phone is your contact with peers. They aren't going to step in and risk being the target.
Preteens are always wondering about themselves and others, so many social mores and relationships seem contradictory.
Be nice to everyone ~ Don't talk to strangers. Don't be mean to animals ~ Kill those vermin. Squirrels are good ~ Rats are bad. Stand up for yourself ~ Don't talk back. Don't hit girls ~ Well why didn't you hit her back.

Without much personal contact with peers it's hard to figure out, and in school you're regimented so personal conversations are limited especially with so many people around.
Answers from adults - "Because I said so".
Phones are bad because they greatly reduce if not eliminate personal contact so vital to become an adjusted kid.

Plus it lets the kid take pictures of shit they shouldn't even see, the little blackmailers.

griff · 3/28/2024 6:17 am

Flint wrote:
I mean, is it the phones? Really? The worst part of all this is that we're learning about it on phones? Would it all be okay if we were still watching TV, and they just didn't tell us about it? And would that be "better" .?

As Bruce pointed out, part of it is what they are not learning while they're glued to the phone. Maybe they are being wired to the new universe which may or may not be useful to the kids but is definitely useful to the 10 guys who own everything. I suppose if the kids are operating in VR they can pretend the hell-scape isn't out there. The medium is the message.

tw · 3/28/2024 9:43 am

What changed? The media (internet) was once a source of well confirmed facts justified by facts. Accessed only when information is needed. The user could be informed when he wanted to be informed.

Social media has turned it into intentional disinformation and hate. Constantly directed at all who cannot get away from it. Even kids could once get away from bullies every night and on weekends. No longer. Being a bully is now popular - and worse - honored. Thanks to massive disinformation (ie social media) that does not let anyone get away. And makes lying honored (praised).

Absolutely amazing how, in the past 20 years, any lie is automatically believed. People do not even know how to separate liars from honesty. Problem clearly demonstrated in the old Cellar. Where outright and obvious lies got so many to believe Saddam had WMDs. So few bothered to discover unlying truths that clearly exposed that lie. Bullying and lies exist now that so few automatically believe "autism is created by vaccines". Since a blond bimbo, without even a high school degree, said so.

A change when iPhones, starting in 2007, made it impossible to get away from disinformation at any hour in any week. Even in 2015.

Flint · 3/28/2024 12:25 pm

I'm going to keep railroading this other tangent..

What would (more likely) be the motivation for politicians to pass laws designed to protect kids // teens from electronic devices // social media // the internet?

a) all the good points that you guys are making

or

b) the fear that young people are developing political awareness and radicalization against the oligarchy before reaching the voting age

...

We're in a race against time. The young people who are being informed // depressed by their phones are the only thing that might save us, if representative Democracy can survive long enough for the generational shift to outweigh the "invisible thumb of the free market" pushing down the other side of the scales.

I have a suspicion that researchers looking for a link between "phone // social media" phones and "depression // anxiety" are seeing a false correlation. The phones are causing depression because young people are learning that the world sucks and there's no future.

Last edited by Flint (3/28/2024 1:47 pm)

tw · 3/28/2024 2:08 pm

Long before laws can be considered, first the problem must be defined in detail. And then solutions based in details that define the problem. All we have are symptoms. Symptoms clearly indicate a problem. But the actual problem is not yet clearly defined.

We do have some vague laws about obvious problems such as bullying. Being vague, they are not easily enforced. Even by management who is responsible for averting or reporting it (ie teachers).

The world does not suck. Except where liars and bullies promote / create such a world.

We are all guinea pigs. Used by god's disciples to learn this new world with new problems.

Anon · 3/28/2024 7:13 pm

Flint wrote:
...We're in a race against time. The young people who are being informed // depressed by their phones are the only thing that might save us, if representative Democracy can survive long enough for the generational shift to outweigh the "invisible thumb of the free market" pushing down the other side of the scales....

The phones are a catalyst in natural selection. Not all kids adapt. Some do, some don't. Some will, some won't. We can increase their chances by working with them, rather than against the technology, so they can achieve balance as an adjunct to survival.

Flint · 3/28/2024 7:27 pm

Anon wrote:
The phones are a catalyst in natural selection. Not all kids adapt. Some do, some don't. Some will, some won't.

I think a lot about traits which are considered a mental illness perhaps being symptoms of evolution. This is in the gray area of daydreaming somewhere in between reality and story ideas.

Anon · 3/28/2024 8:13 pm

Not so much story idea when you consider that either the kids, their kids, or their grandchildren will also need to have developed a method for adapting to the singularity and its free market ramifications.

glatt · 3/29/2024 6:36 am

Flint wrote:
The phones are causing depression because young people are learning that the world sucks and there's no future.

I mostly agree with all your points, but I would point out that while there is climate change going on, and that's an extremely serious problem, all the other shit going on is just more of the same that has been going on forever.

The big problem with social media is that the human brain is wired to respond to problems and focus on problems, so content that brings up negativity and problems rises to the top of the algorithm and people focus on that more than any any of the objectively good news that's out there. The crap in the world is over represented on social media. I think Meta and Youtube are by far the worst in my experience, but TikTok is up there too.

griff · 3/29/2024 7:18 am

Yeah, I don't think that we can ignore the psychological needs that screens (and by extension social media robber barons) take advantage of. The intermittent reinforcement of a powerful stimulus will keep pulling disorganized people, in this case middle-schoolers, back in.That screen focus, regardless of the information presented, can be depressing in itself.

Anon · 3/29/2024 8:18 am

Which is why there are catch-all phrases like: "Everything in moderation", "Too much of anything can be a bad thing" and "Be concerned but don't worry."

Somewhere along the line, most kids will learn this from others. Those that the village fail to teach will fall by the wayside; unless, they've figured out how to "Adapt and survive" by themselves.

It's just pathetic when the village resorts to scapegoating for its failures.

Flint · 3/29/2024 2:37 pm

I guess I should take a page from my own life. I recently started looking at Facebook again, and within about a week I was habitually doom scrolling. I uninstalled it from my phone because it makes me feel bad. The only things I look at are sites that are able to be effectively curated. YouTube is an incredible source of information about my specific interests, and Reddit I only scroll through a Custom feed.

I will maintain to my dying breathe, however that if you were a kid growing up in a doomed hell-world where fascism is on the rise and a massive upward transfer of wealth is being reinvested in unlimited political influence, then simply being informed about the world would be the worst thing for your mental health.

"phones bad" is probably true, but "bad, true information makes you feel bad" is something I can't ignore

griff · 3/29/2024 3:17 pm

Yeah, seems like both are true. The scapegoating is interesting as we have a number of items which people throw up if they see issues. Covid for driving like an asshole is one. Climate change and hopelessness. Screens and depression.

xoxoxoBruce · 4/02/2024 1:34 am

When I was about 13ish I can remember sitting on a pile of hay and this girl about a year younger whos folks rented my uncles house across the street telling me I should be peeking the windows because her mother liked to walk around in a Fredrick's of Hollywood bra and half-slip. Then she said she would show me hers if I showed her mine. If one or both of us had our noses buried in a phone we would have missed the whole thing. A tragedy for sure.

PS... I didn't take her up on it. Her folks were renting while their new house was being built as they were moving into town because her father was the new Superintendent of schools. I was afraid to rile him as even mellow educated men are funny about daughters. But she fueled my imagination for months.

Last edited by xoxoxoBruce (4/02/2024 1:36 am)

griff · 4/02/2024 6:28 am

Today in Tech Feuds:

https://www.wsaz.com/2024/03/31/13-year-old-girl-accused-killing-mom-after-her-phone-was-taken-away-police-say/WILKES-BARRE, Pa. (Gray News) - A 13-year-old girl is accused of killing her mom after having her phone taken away on Friday, according to Pennsylvania authorities.Wilkes-Barre Police responded to the scene around 12:30 p.m., due to reports of an unresponsive woman.When officers arrived, they found a 44-year-old victim with multiple stab wounds to her neck, back and blood coming from her head, WYOU reported.Officers said when they first made contact with Lataya Powell she said she was sorry she killed her mother.

Flint · 4/02/2024 7:34 pm

Has any child in history ever killed their parent after their parent took something else besides a phone away from them? And for each type of item and historical period, was it more or less frequent than phones, in the last ten years?

I tried googling "child killed parent after they took away -phone" and found this Snopes article about the fake story "Nine-Year-Old Murders Parents After They Turn Off Wi-Fi"

So it seems people really want this to be a thing that happens. I'm more curious about that-- why do people think new things are bad?

Last edited by Flint (4/02/2024 7:36 pm)

griff · 4/03/2024 6:31 am

I'll give it a shot. Screens and the attention economy are a next level threat. Drugs, alcohol, romance novels, motorcycles, and wood working equipment only impact particular small percentages of the population. Screens are everywhere, in pockets, purses, restaurant walls, desks, cars, bicycles, classrooms, selling, propagandizing, insinuating into every situation reducing our attention to the Now.

The question is are we controlling the screen or is the screen controlling us. As adults we like to think we're in charge of our technology, but to what extent can middle schoolers even fake that?

Some good stuff is going to come of the free flow of information and some really shitty stuff is coming from the free flow of dis/misinformation. How that plays out is going to rely on individual education and ego. We have to be educated enough to recognize what we don't know and avoid ego driven responses. This does not describe a pre-teen brain.

Diaphone Jim · 4/03/2024 12:20 pm

"This does not describe a pre-teen brain."
Though it is hard to describe, it is the most important thing in the world.

Flint · 4/03/2024 12:39 pm

griff wrote:
...wood working equipment...

Lizzie Borden? lol

...

I take your point that screens are ubiquitous. I also think, they're changing us.

It has been proposed that, for spiders who encode information within their webs, those webs could be considered 'a part of' their cognition. I think about this a lot, I have two 6x4 whiteboards in my office where I catalog information my brain can't keep in cache memory, but I keep it in my line of sight, where it can be near instantly re-injected back into my brain's CPU. Those whiteboards are functionally 'a part of' my brain. My phone (Rocketbook app) can snap pics of my whiteboard, OCR a ##filename## and send it to Dropbox (or wherever). Now my brain is everywhere.

Our brains are changing. Getting better, more efficient, but more emotionally dysfunctional. We weren't designed for this.. but, we were never 'designed for' pressing cuneiform into clay tablets, it's just something we figured out, and it stuck. Maybe there's an adjustment period. Maybe we find homeostasis with the new simulus, and the new 'us' is something different than before. I think this is the ostensibly "good" argumment for "human progress."

And we were Darth Vadering ourselves long before silicon chips.
Maybe the worst machinization of an unwilling human physiology is forcing everyone to sleep and wake on the schedule of industrial age factory whistles.

Last edited by Flint (4/03/2024 12:52 pm)