IC wrote:

You don't know that the Democrats have a guy named Bernie, among others, who are totally sold out to Socialism?  And you've never heard of the push for "universal health care" or "universal basic income," ...

The Democrats literally rigged their own Primaries to stop Bernie Sanders in 2016. They don't "have a guy" named Bernie--they hate his guts. When he ran again in 2020, they orchestrated all their support to oust him, a second time, and all got behind the candidate that OPPOSES universal healthcare. The guy who was picked to balance the Obama ticket based on being the most Right-leaning Democrat.

Universal basic income is considered a fringe theory that people have only heard of because one single guy who ran, and lost, mentioned it. 

There is no Socialist movement, Democrats exist solely to oppose anyone more Left-leaning than the Center, and progressives are basically blacklisted from media appearances. When's the last time you saw Bernie Sanders in the news? He's vanished.

Where is this Socialist movement I'm supposed to have heard of?
 

Last edited by Flint (12/03/2020 5:40 pm)

Name one Socialist.

Bernie Sanders is a Democratic Socialist, not a Socialist-- that's two different things. I assumed you would find them interchangeable, but that's a longer and more tiresome debate. Lets go with Sanders and the Squad and call them, incorrectly, "Socialists" ...

Bernie, as I said, has literally been rigged out of two Primaries, despite a grassroots movement of popular support. The establishment hates him. The Squad, also hated and shunned by party leaders-- Nancy Pelosi is more hostile to them than she is to Trump. These two examples are absolutely ANTITHETICAL to the Democratic party and the establishment media. The Democrats and the media exist to STOP people like this from getting into power.

IC wrote:

Socialism says that people oppress each other, and won't voluntarily do the right thing.  That's why we need Socialism, they say.

But then, we should give strong, central control of all aspects of life to a group of people (the government) they say.

So we should give uncontested, centralized control to people who will oppress us?  That's the logic?

And that's exactly how it has played out it 100 percent of the situations in which Socialism has become the regnant system.  An "elite" of the governing have take over all aspects of life, and oppressed everyone else.  And in not a single case has is been otherwise.  From Russia and China to North Korea and Venezuela, from  Bulgaria and Albania to Zimbabwe or Tanzania, it's never been any other way.

Tell me, then, why Socialism will work THIS time, when every other time before it's resulted in tyranny, misery, oppression and economic collapse?  What makes North Americans so much wiser and better than all other human beings, so that we can make work a system that has betrayed the human race 100% of the time before?

 I'd like you to define Socialism please, let's get our terms straight before we begin the ad hominem attacks.

What is Socialism?

Flint wrote:

Ocasio Cortez is also a Democratic Socialist, not a Socialist. You can double-check on on Wikipedia.

Heh, heh...the first refuge of everybody...the wiki.  

Unfortunately, there's really no such thing as a stable "Democratic socialism," because the Socialist elements always undermine Democracy.  That's why all Socialist regimes end up totalitarian, not democratic.

Flint wrote:

They HATE progressive policies.

Apparently not, according to USA Today.

Flint wrote:

If there's a Socialist movement, you'd be able to name one Socialist who has been elected to political office in America in the last 50 years.

Well, here's your fount of good information, wiki:

=14px"Bernard Sanders is an American politician who has served as the junior United States senator from Vermont since 2007 and as U.S. Representative for the state's at-large congressional district from 1991 to 2007."

=14pxOr how about, 

"Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, also known by her initials AOC, is an American politician serving as the U.S. Representative for New York's 14th congressional district since 2019. The district includes the eastern part of the Bronx, portions of north-central Queens, and Rikers Island in New York City." 

Wiki again.
 

Can't find any Socialists, can you? There's not any, because being a Socialist is political suicide in the United States.

Flint wrote:

Can't find any Socialists, can you? There's not any, because being a Socialist is political suicide in the United States.

Heh. I just named two, and proved from your favourite source that they are elected officials.  
 

Flint wrote:

There are no Socialists in American politics.

I see.

So, your cities occupied by terrorists, while others are burning, and others are collapsing from homelessness and failed Socialist policies.  All your whites are all accused of racism, your government is expanding to take over all functions of life, your elections are being fiddled...but there's no Socialist threat in America, even when your elected Democratic politicians support the people who are doing these things?  They're "democratic Socialists," not real Socialists...or Progressives, or Social Justice advocates, or peaceful protestors....

Yeah, I can't argue with "logic" like that.  Those who are determined to see no Socialism will certainly see none.

IC wrote:

My argument so far has been for democratic governments that are held accountable to the people they serve.  So legit government functions like roads, or firefighting, or policing, or the military are not implicated at all.  They're legit functions of government -- ideally, a government the functions of which are strictly defined, the term of which is limited and the powers circumscribed by the rights of the public.

But things like "universal basic salary" or "arranging loans for college," or "economic confiscation and redistribution" are no part of a legitimate government's function.  Nor is "controlling the election" or "handing the country over to Socialist ideologues to be reshaped as they see fit."
 

Your list of legitimate functions is arbitrary. All of those functions have been done privately. We decide democratically to  do those things as well as to go to the moon. We decide these things through our representatives. We live in a country with a ruinous health care system because we've decided to. We can also decide to change that.

I get the fear of "socialism" boogeyman we don't want to be Venezuela but there is a huge difference between say modern Germany and a totalitarian state. The difficulty is that we need to engage with government rather than dismiss it. We need to treat government as a tool and use it responsibly. We have been rightly trained by our own propaganda to fear totalitarianism from the left unfortunately government skeptics  often have a blind spot for totalitarianism from the right. Choosing a middle path isn't sexy but it rarely leads to a bloodbath.

Last edited by griff (12/04/2020 8:08 am)

one of the great victories of the enemy has been gettin' folks flummoxed over labels...

this is communism, that is socialism, and over here we have democratic socialism which, of course, is not to be confused with socialist democracy which itself is not to be confused with communitarianism which is distinct from democracy
and on and on

we muddy the waters with philosophies, ideologies, political skew, losin' sight of what's been at play since before man fell from the trees a quarter of a million years ago

as much as anyone, I've mired myself in such hairsplittin' from time to time, and probably will again when high passions take hold

however, my eleutheromania -- that out-dated, atavistic impulse -- always reasserts itself and I remember: the war is between the free man and the slaver

it's as stark & plain as that

the two flowcharts illustrate this...





the questions they pose are unambiguous...

without government, who would provide X?

do you own yourself?

...and are independent of philosophy, ideology, and political skew

by way of these two simple flowcharts you can determine if...

you're free or enslaved; if you're a free man or a slaver

What to do with the people who are shitting right near us, but unwilling to pay for the pipes and treatment facilities?

*kill them

*drive them off

*make them pay

*pay for them

*move

*attend to your own health by spendin' your money to isolate your property from theirs

I can make a case for any of the above based on specific details of a specific scenario which you haven't offered

So I would have to voluntarily pay for each road I drive on, etc?

Sounds like a huge pain in the ass.  I think I'll just stick with the way things are now.