Flint wrote:

For some reason he won't respond to anything you say unless you declare a statement of a position, which he never asked for in the first place. I'm not even sure what the scope of the position is supposed to be. Your position on "everything" I guess..?? There's no clear premise that has been communicated.
 

 
the premise is in the thread title

my own opening is an example of, though not a model for, what I want from debaters

as I say: I will not be the cheese standin' alone...all views should be presented for inspection, not just mine

and: yeah, I shoulda posted that request in the opening...I didn't, but I did self-correct early on...so, get past it, guy

and: my words in the thread are plain & direct...anyone can read & understand them...they and I don't need you to act as my interpreter...you attend to you, thank you very much

Last edited by henry_quirk (12/23/2020 9:26 pm)

Flint wrote:

Statement of Position, Addendum:
Disagreement often exists regarding things about which a communication breakdown has occurred in the sending or receiving of them. A genuine disagreement on the ideas both may and may not exist, and this is independent of the sender's sending and/or the receiver's receiving.

 
if you feel I'm misunderstandin' sumthin', explain

if you feel I haven't explained myself well, ask

from where I stand: I'm not seen' any misunderstandin' or miscommunication

"obviously, nuthin' increases liberty"
If you're in a cage, then you get out, your liberty increased.

Flint wrote:

"obviously, nuthin' increases liberty"
If you're in a cage, then you get out, your liberty increased.

 
no, your liberty is restored

Flint wrote:

If "the majority of the planet lives under some form of tyranny' wouldn't the default condition be not-Liberty? Are we talking about things which do exist or thing we wish existed? Everyone wishes they were at Maximum Liberty, but in truth no such condition exists, even conceptually. There will always be constraints on any being which isn't omniscient and omnipotent, and even then self-imposed constraints are still possible.

 
yeah, thru most of history man has be slaved to other men...that wars are fought to throw off the yoke, that no one passively accepts overt enslavement, sez a lot about man's nature

as I say: even the slaver, as he enslaves others, never agrees that he should be a slave

as I say: every man knows he is his own (even as he refuses to recognize the ownness of the other guy)

self-direction & self-responsibility are naturally limited by the way Reality works...I can flap my arms as much as I like but I ain't flyin' like a hummingbird...no, freedom and the closely related free will are not unlimited...to self-direct & be self-responsible (bein' free), to be a cause and not merely an event (bein' a free will), these don't require a god-like nature (they only require, if I may be bold, a *soul)









*I'm a deist...it's part parcel to my natural rights libertarianism, which, as I say, is a kind of moral realism...I believe man is a composite being, an inextricable mix of substance & spirit...I believe man is a free will, responsible to and for himself...I believe the Creator, while not directly involved in Creation, endowed man with conscience, a kind of moral compass, one he can choose to ignore

I state all this now rather than later to emphasize this debate, for me, is not an exercise in political bent, but, again, to point out there is a moral fact (about man) we can turn to as guide & boundary of what is permissible between and among men

xoxoxoBruce wrote:

henry_quirk wrote:

Flint wrote:

"obviously, nuthin' increases liberty"
If you're in a cage, then you get out, your liberty increased.

 
no, your liberty is restored

Your liberty was limited by the cage.
You get out of the cage now your liberty has no limits?
I don't think so, when your liberty starts overriding my liberty you better back the fuck up.
All liberty has limits, some self imposed, some other people imposed, and some government imposed for the good of society( or for some fat cat who bought a politician) 

 
some of the above I address in my last post...I'll let you catch up

now is a good time for me to break anyway...bed time for minarchists

and, bruce, if you're gonna play, you gotta pay...mebbe read the thread, definitely put your own positions on the table...if you get to dissect me, I get to dissect you

footfootfoot wrote:

Flint wrote:

For some reason he won't respond to anything you say unless you declare a statement of a position, which he never asked for in the first place. I'm not even sure what the scope of the position is supposed to be. Your position on "everything" I guess..?? There's no clear premise that has been communicated.
 

Because it's an intellectual masturbation circle jerk. It begins with a faulty premise that is not backed up by any proof. Any arguments or positions based on a faulty premise or not backed up with proof are not worth debating. If I wanted that kind of shit, I'd listen to trump and his cult.
In summary: My position is that hos argument is based on a faulty premise and therefore suspect at best.

 
my premise is supported...I've included a means of falsification...but: that's moot cuz I reckon you ain't participatin' in the debate

xoxoxoBruce wrote:

mor·al
adjective
1. concerned with the principles of right and wrong behavior and the goodness or badness of human character.
"the moral dimensions of medical intervention"
Similar:
virtuous, good, righteous, upright, upstanding, high-minded, right-minded, principled, proper, honorable,
honest, just, noble, incorruptible, scrupulous, respectable, decent, irreproachable, truthful, law-abiding,
clean-living, chaste, pure, blameless, sinless,
 
Opposite:
immoral, bad, dishonorable
 
2. holding or manifesting high principles for proper conduct.
"he prides himself on being a highly moral and ethical person"
 
noun
1. a lesson, especially one concerning what is right or prudent, that can be derived from a story, a piece of information, or an experience.
"the moral of this story was that one must see the beauty in what one has"
Similar:
lesson, message, meaning, significance, signification, import, point, precept, teaching
 
2. a person's standards of behavior or beliefs concerning what is and is not acceptable for them to do.
"the corruption of public morals"
Similar:
moral code, code of ethics, moral standards, moral values

OK, as an adjective good not bad, but does not define what good and bad are.
As a noun #1 is teaching good vs bad, which means what someone else decided what good and bad entail.
#2 is your  personal collection of what you feel  is good and bad behavior.
Fair enough, but to say your collection that guides your behavior is "Moral Fact" is misleading at best.
Sure it's a fact to you, it's your chosen path, but it's not a fact to me or anyone else. If you say it's a fact because it's your way of thinking and behaving, you're saying you'll never change your mind or compromise the path under any circumstances. If you say it, and believe it, there is still no guarantee, there's no law or force to make you, strictly your decision. Because of that I don't buy it's a fact. 

Bruce, do you agree or disagree...

a man belongs to himself

a man's life, liberty, and property are his

a man's life, liberty, or property are only forfeit, in part or whole, when he knowingly, willingly, without just cause, deprives another, in part or whole, of life, liberty, or property

glatt wrote:

I'm reminded of the two Mormon Boy Scout leaders in Utah a few years back who toppled over a balancing rock that was a feature of a public park.  They later claimed they were doing it because the rock looked tippy and it was a safety thing to bring it down.  Many people, and especially other Boy Scout members who practice and teach "leave no trace," were horrified at their actions.

Conflicting morals there. These two guys thought that messing with property belonging to others in an effort to "make things safe" was the moral thing to do, and others thought that leaving no trace, especially on property that doesn't belong to you was the moral thing to do.

I have also messed with property that doesn't belong to me, but in a way that I thought was for the greater good.  I was in a campsite once where somebody in the past had driven a big spike into a tree so they could hang a lantern from it.  I worked to carefully to remove that spike because it didn't belong there and was likely hurting the tree..  Were my actions really any different from the 2 jabronies in Utah?  Were we each acting according to our morals?

 
arbiters exist so that men can air disputes and have those disputes settled fairly and dispassionately (that's the idea, anyway)

the examples you cite are property matters...I can tell you what I think, as I reckon it, if you want

Heh Heh.  I forgot about that.  I wonder if the ground has recovered during the pandemic?  I bet not.  Hard packed soil takes years to recover on its own.

moral
 adjective
mor·​al | \ ˈmȯr-əl  , ˈmär- \
Essential Meaning of moral
1: concerning or relating to what is right and wrong in human behavior.
2: based on what you think is right and good.
3: considered right and good by most people. 
 
 Full Definition of moral
 (Entry 1 of 2)
1a: of or relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior. 
b: expressing or teaching a conception of right behavior.
c: conforming to a standard of right behavior.
d: sanctioned by or operative on one's conscience or ethical judgment.
e: capable of right and wrong action.
2: probable though not proved. 
3: perceptual or psychological rather than tangible or practical in nature or effect.
 
moral
 noun
mor·​al | \ ˈmȯr-əl  , ˈmär-; sense 3 is mə-ˈral  \
Definition of moral (Entry 2 of 2)
1a: the moral significance or practical lesson (as of a story).
b: a passage pointing out usually in conclusion the lesson to be drawn from a story.
2 morals plural
a: moral practices or teachings : modes of conduct.
b: ETHICS the science of morals endeavors to divide men into the good and the bad.
3: MORALE The casualties did not shake the morale of the soldiers.
 
An authoritative code of morals has force and effect when it expresses the settled customs of a stable society— Walter Lippmann.

There is no natural morals. All morals a human constructs.
Humans crave human contact and acceptance from birth.
To achieve that the vast majority are willing to follow the mutually agreed morals/rules of that society.
The alternative is to or look for one who's morals/rules they can live with or live apart from society.
If you try to live within a society but not follow the morals/rules you will die.