The Cellar / Foot Feathers

**Posted by xoxoxoBruce** 8/02/2022 11:36 pm

I ran across these pictures from a 1906 German(I think) bird book showing all these birds, I'm guessing are pigeons, with feathered feet. I found out the feathered feet are caused by one of, or a combination of, two genes.
OK passed down blah blah blah, but why did feathered feet develop in the first place?
Look more like a handicap than help.
Handy for Ptarmigan in the Arctic, Owls and Golden Eagles have use too.
But I can’t figure out why these birds would have needed it.
Curiouser and curiouser.

**Posted by glatt** 8/03/2022 6:47 am

Weird. I learned something new today. Thanks Bruce,

**Posted by fargon** 8/03/2022 10:29 am

Thanks Bruce.

**Posted by footfootfoot** 8/03/2022 8:47 pm

I do not feather. That is a viscous rumor.

**Posted by xoxoxoBruce** 8/04/2022 2:14 am

Are you sure you're not a plucker?

**Posted by Diaphone Jim** 8/04/2022 11:33 am

They are an example of the grotesqueries that result from human intervention in breeding.
In the video, you can imagine the downside of running around all day in chicken and pigeon shit with those Chaplin appendages.
Also must destroy aerodynamics.
Breeding for some features (meat production, resistance to disease, e.g.) might be justified, but only a species that is destroying its home planet is capable of doing this for the "fun" of it..
Dog shows are an example.

https://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DIeyzeehgcP0&ved=2ahUKEwj3nZqTya35AhVqDkQIHXBJDSUQtwJ6BAgJEAE&usg=AOvVaw3f9W4JiYN6lsIyQ9Ak5ETm">https://www.google.com/url?esrc=s&q=&rct=j&sa=U&url=https://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DIeyzeehgcP0&ved=2ahUKEwj3nZqTya35AhVqDkQIHXBJDSUQtwJ6BAgJEAE&usg=AOvVaw3f9W4JiYN6lsIyQ9Ak5ETm

**Posted by BigV** 8/04/2022 9:40 pm

not just boids....

Heavy Horses too.

this is better ;;>

Last edited by BigV (8/04/2022 9:45 pm)

**Posted by xoxoxoBruce** 8/05/2022 7:07 pm

Diaphone Jim wrote:
They are an example of the grotesqueries that result from human intervention in breeding.

So you feel all those pigeon breed examples from 1906 were the result of human intervention?

**Posted by Diaphone Jim** 8/06/2022 12:23 pm

Feel? Yes.
I don't know, of course, but we have been at it for 5000 years.

**Posted by xoxoxoBruce** 8/06/2022 8:52 pm

Diaphone Jim wrote:
Feel? Yes.
I don't know, of course, but we have been at it for 5000 years.

Been around longer than that, you give the hairless monkey too much credit.
History Of Feather-footed Pigeons
The University of Utah has traced back the pigeons to dinosaurs. As per the study, the scales and feathers that you see on birds were developed by dinosaurs before they turned into birds. So what you see today is the result of evolution.
As you know, two genes are responsible for these feathered feet. Pigeons with feathers on their feet have the hindlimb-development gene Pitx1 less active than it should, while the forelimb-development gene Tbx5 is more active than it should.

https://www.backtobirds.com/pigeon-with-feathered-feet/#History_Of_Feather-footed_Pigeons

**Posted by Diaphone Jim** 8/08/2022 11:40 am

Is there a wild population of feather-footed pigeons?
I.e., is there some natural advantage to having what seems to me to be a burdensome and disadvantageous trait?
Birds do have some outrageous features that usually play a part in mating.
In my basic ignorance of pigeons, it seems plain that over 5000+ generations, that trait has resulted from the fantasies of the people who breed them, not the benefit of the birds.

**Posted by TheNeverWas** 8/08/2022 3:39 pm

Diaphone Jim wrote:
Is there a wild population of feather-footed pigeons?

I'm sure there are some that like to get a little high and tight on the weekends...

**Posted by xoxoxoBruce** 8/08/2022 6:17 pm

Diaphone Jim wrote:
Is there a wild population of feather-footed pigeons?
I.e., is there some natural advantage to having what seems to me to be a burdensome and disadvantageous trait?
Birds do have some outrageous features that usually play a part in mating.
In my basic ignorance of pigeons, it seems plain that over 5000+ generations, that trait has resulted from the fantasies of the people who breed them, not the benefit of the birds.

Yes, wild populations, at least there were before 100 years ago, may be all decimated by now.
In the original post I wondered why that trait would continue when it appears to be a handicap.

**Posted by Happy Monkey** 8/09/2022 10:32 am

Nothing compared to a peacock; they could just think it looks sexy.

**Posted by xoxoxoBruce** 8/10/2022 11:07 pm

There are some species that appear to have both foot feathers and no foot feathers. I wonder which get laid more?